First time fossil buyer - was I duped at the Denver show?

[thegnome54]

Hello all,

 

I've been a fossil admirer for many years and finally pulled the trigger to get a few pieces of my own this week at the Denver show. Regrettably, I didn't do any research into fakes beforehand - didn't even cross my mind, as this is an organized and seemingly reputable event.

I bought two trilobite fossils and one brittle star. Each was from a different vendor, all of whom were from Morocco. When I started doing some reading to try to confirm their species after I got home, I found many resources about fake fossils including this forum. I now suspect that all three of my fossils are fakes, as I can see what appear to be pinholes from resin bubbles on them. I've attached some photos.

The larger trilobite I got from a guy who had tons of different-sized trilobites in various positions on different bits of stone, and it has visible cracks where it's been reassembled. However it seems to have clear pinholes across its head.

The brittle star seems like the most obvious fake after learning more about fakes, given the color and shininess plus the couple of pinholes.

I'm not really sure what to do at this point - I still admire these pieces and find them quite beautiful. If they're casts of real fossils they retain some of their interest for me. But it feels really bad to have been duped, potentially three times, in my first foray into fossil collecting. I have half a mind to go back and confront the vendors (I paid two of them with zelle and have their names and information) but I'm not sure what would be gained. Is there some way I could notify the venue so that other buyers don't get swindled?

Curious to hear people's thoughts on whether these are indeed all fakes, and what you would do in my place. Currently I'm leaning towards considering it a lesson and keeping them as pieces of art, but the bad taste does linger.

Thanks for your time!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by JohnJ
Prices removed from topic per Forum Rules

[hemipristis]

Don’t feel bad. We’ve all been taken at some point. Be thankful that you didn’t spend much.

I was duped on an Indonesian croc jaw. I’m embarrassed to state how much I lost.

 

Chalk it up to a lesson learned

Edited September 15, 2023 by hemipristis

[thegnome54]

So you feel they're fakes, too? It's pretty hard to deny the pinhole bubbles up close...

 

I just feel like if three different vendors sold me counterfeit goods, the problem is endemic. Do you think the venue knows? Does no one care? Isn't this illegal?

[Fossildude19]

Buyer beware. Stay away from Moroccan and Chinese fossils.  Not that they are all fake, just that they have the worst track records and cottage industries for fakes/replicas.

[hemipristis]

6 minutes ago, thegnome54 said:

So you feel they're fakes, too? It's pretty hard to deny the pinhole bubbles up close...

 

I just feel like if three different vendors sold me counterfeit goods, the problem is endemic. Do you think the venue knows? Does no one care? Isn't this illegal?

Oh, sorry, I didn’t mean to give the impression either way. I don’t have an eye for such things. I’m just saying that if they are, don’t beat yourself over the bed about it.

[hemipristis]

1 minute ago, Fossildude19 said:

Buyer beware. Stay away from Moroccan and Chinese fossils.  Not that they are all fake, just that they have the worst track records and cottage industries for fakes/replicas.

Agreed. I will dabble with teeth from Morocco, but even then I’m leary. But I stay arms-length from the inverts

[Fossildude19]

Unfortunately, all are pretty bad fakes, in my opinion. 

[Randyw]

I’m sorry to say it but I agree these are all fakes… I’ve seen pictures of hundreds of these being made….

[Brett Breakin' Rocks]

1 hour ago, thegnome54 said:

I'm not really sure what to do at this point - I still admire these pieces and find them quite beautiful. If they're casts of real fossils they retain some of their interest for me. But it feels really bad to have been duped, potentially three times, in my first foray into fossil collecting. I have half a mind to go back and confront the vendors (I paid two of them with zelle and have their names and information) but I'm not sure what would be gained. Is there some way I could notify the venue so that other buyers don't get swindled?

These are definitely casts. That being said I think personally I would do more visual research online concerning fossils such as these. The trilobites from Morrocan deals especially need to be scrutinized for enhancements or casts such as these. So detail is important. Some of the crude hammer and nail prep techniques can wipe away most of the detail, but now they use the hammer and nail 'look' to mask the castings. 

 

Here is a good guide to help spot the fakes:

https://timevaultgallery.com/fake-trilobites-how-to-identify/

 

This is your fossil next to a more professionally prepped version, found at the Crowne Plaza in Denver. Lots of really great fossils at the Crowne.  That would be a good education, to go to the Crowne Plaza and see first-hand the more professionally prepared trilobites. This dealer was inside the hotel rooms on the first floor.

 

Lack of detail is usually very important to instantly pick out fossils you will want to avoid. These are great examples of genuine fossils. All from the Crowne Plaza.

 

Note that some of these feel 'rough' and not prettied up. 

 

That being said, the very same dealers also have examples of genuine fossils. It's about educating yourself. These fossils are all from the Western Complex. The sawfish rostral spine on the far right is poorly 'glued' so it will need some TLC but is part of the same spine. These are often composited. 
 

 

Hope some of the trilo info helps. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Brett Breakin' Rocks

[FranzBernhard]

Any chance to self-collect some fossils, @thegnome54?

Franz Bernhard

[RJB]

Yep, buyer beware for sure.  We've all been taken before.  Stay away from the Moroccan and chinese fossils until you have acquainted yourself with what looks/maybe/is fake.  A good thing to take with you to a fossil show is a jewelers loup.  There are some good Moroccan dealers out there though.  and best of luck 

 

RB

[FossilNerd]

Sorry to confirm your suspicions, but all 3 look to be fake to me. 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Yes, these are all horrible fakes, I'm afraid. 

Whilst it is true that a lot of these forgeries are from Morocco and China, it should be borne in mind that these two countries are probably the largest international suppliers of fossils and only a small percentage of the offered items are dodgy. Third might be the USA where you find painted fish and insects as well as sellers proclaiming an oddly shaped rock as a dinosaur embryo etc. But the USA, as with China and Morocco, is also a huge supplier of wonderful and genuine fossils.

Caveat emptor, indeed, many of us have been fooled on occasion, I know I have despite fifty years of experience. 

Best bet is to post things here on the forum before purchasing, where that is possible, even at a trade fair one could take a photo and post it hoping for a speedy response. 

[aplomado]

There is a lot of good stuff from Morocco as well as fake stuff.  You can buy from a reputable dealer and/or post a picture of a potential purchase here before buying.

[thegnome54]

Thank you for all of your responses!

I do feel that this 'caveat emptor' stuff is a bit victim blaming - shouldn't the venue collecting fees from these vendors do any bit of due diligence to ensure that counterfeit goods aren't being sold in every booth?

I have contacted the venue organizers, requested refunds from the sellers I paid digitally, and am considering contacting the local news.

If it was just one fake fossil I might feel differently, but getting three fakes from three different stalls is beyond the pale. This event is clearly profiting off of the resale of counterfeit goods, and I hate to think how many folks are getting swindled every day these stalls are open.

[hadrosauridae]

52 minutes ago, thegnome54 said:

Thank you for all of your responses!

I do feel that this 'caveat emptor' stuff is a bit victim blaming - shouldn't the venue collecting fees from these vendors do any bit of due diligence to ensure that counterfeit goods aren't being sold in every booth?

I have contacted the venue organizers, requested refunds from the sellers I paid digitally, and am considering contacting the local news.

If it was just one fake fossil I might feel differently, but getting three fakes from three different stalls is beyond the pale. This event is clearly profiting off of the resale of counterfeit goods, and I hate to think how many folks are getting swindled every day these stalls are open.

 

Its not victim blaming.  You can't expect an organizer to be a subject matter expert in every aspect of the field.  Secondly, What would the repercussions be if a vendor was removed for a "counterfeit" item that was later proven credible?  Its a slippery slope (straight down!) to even attempt.  THAT is why every convention sale has always ever been "buyer be ware" and make sure YOU know before you buy.

[Auspex]

14 hours ago, Brett Breakin' Rocks said:

Here is a good guide to help spot the fakes:

Well done; thank you!

 

[Randyw]

The venue just rents the space out many know nothing about the items being offered. But the real question is were there any signs or did the sellers specifically tell you that those particular fossils were authentic fossils? If not then it's not illegal.. as to ethical? I'll leave that to others to debate. But @tidgysdad is quite correct. There are many many great fossils coming out of Morocco and china. I have a beautiful authentic crinoid death plate from there as well as a set of fake mosasaur jaws that I knew was fake when I bought them but they were cheap and  I wanted them for my display.

[North]

There is lot of nice fossils from Morocco, but it is very sad that faked ones and manipulated ones are quite common. 

Because there is also real fossils, but with added fake pieces, mixing etc.

You need to have good ammount of knowledge and be carefull that you don't end up getting those.

 

Best luck for the future, and don't give up for fossils. Good ones are out there.

[thegnome54]

58 minutes ago, hadrosauridae said:

 

Its not victim blaming.  You can't expect an organizer to be a subject matter expert in every aspect of the field.  Secondly, What would the repercussions be if a vendor was removed for a "counterfeit" item that was later proven credible?  Its a slippery slope (straight down!) to even attempt.  THAT is why every convention sale has always ever been "buyer be ware" and make sure YOU know before you buy.

 

I understand the slippery slope argument. But I spent ten minutes googling when I got home and learned about the pinhole bubbles - telltale on each of my purchases. I would think they could at least screen for such an obvious tell so that the burden wouldn't be on buyers to identify the single legitimate fossil among dozens of fakes in every tent. 

The vendors told me about where the fossils had been mined from, and how they were cleaned in preparation for sale.

 

Telling someone that they were lied to and sold counterfeit goods by three different vendors at an event, but it's their fault for believing them, is victim blaming in my book.

[Bobby Rico]

2 hours ago, thegnome54 said:

I have contacted the venue organizers, requested refunds from the sellers I paid digitally, and am considering contacting the local news.

If it was just one fake fossil I might feel differently, but getting three fakes from three different stalls is beyond the pale. This event is clearly profiting off of the resale of counterfeit goods, and I hate to think how many folks are getting swindled every day these stalls are open.

I am afraid to say I don’t think the venue will do anything to help you. As it been disused before the selling of fake fossil
is not regulated . It is really up to you to educate yourself before buyIng ( edited, I am not blaming you I am just say this is the only way to make sure you get a good purchase) . TFF has many members that will guide in your purchases. Sorry this has happened to you.
 

Cheers Bobby 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Bobby Rico

[Fin Lover]

Hopefully, your credit card company or whatever you used to pay will reimburse you for the charges.  Other than that, I don't think you will be able to get much done about it.  Those vendors can claim these were intended to be pieces of art, replicas for educational or display purposes only, etc.  So, as others have mentioned, unless there was something stating they were real, I don't know that the organizers, venue, news station, or anyone else will get involved.  Do I think this is ok?  Absolutely not.  Do I think it should be on the buyer?  Absolutely not.  But, in today's world, there are a lot of scams, forgery, identity theft, etc.  You have to be careful about anything you buy.  I hope that this doesn't keep you from collecting fossils in the future, but that you use it as a learning experience. 

 

If you are somewhere where you can find your own fossils, that is so much more satisfying than buying them, in my opinion.

[Fossildude19]

19 minutes ago, thegnome54 said:

Telling someone that they were lied to and sold counterfeit goods by three different vendors at an event, but it's their fault for believing them, is victim blaming in my book.

 

I don't see this as victim blaming, telling you that you need to beware of scams. They exist everywhere now. I research nearly every purchase I make these days. 

It's just good common sense to look into things, in this day and age.

I think you are doing the right thing to complain to the venue, and the vendors who took your money in bad faith. But please, do not say we are blaming you. We aren't. Unfortunately, fossil collecting (unless you collect your own fossils out in the field) is fraught with fakes and replicas.  I wish you well, and do not blame you for trusting what you were told.  I'm sorry you got taken in.

[Bobby Rico]

15 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

the vendors who took your money in bad faith.

I would say that every vendor in these case knew exactly what they was selling. Morally I find it hard to understand how they can behave like this . 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Bobby Rico

[Kane]

Logistically, it would not be feasible for the venue operators to inspect every item being sold at these shows. At best, perhaps in your discussion with the venue, inquire if there might one day be a form of dispute resolution service they might be able to provide in future.