Question About Paths in Paleontology

[patelinho7]

I've been thinking a lot about my future these days as an undergraduate. I'm an electrical engineering/music double major student at a school with no geology department or evolutionary biology-specific department. I used to want to become a paleontologist as a child. Unlike many people who went through the phase, I actually tried to do everything I could as a kid to lead me to a career in that field. My parents supported my endeavors too, they tried to enroll me in whatever they could that would get me closer to my goal as a paleontologist. At some point, I can't really place what, I changed. I don't know if it really was me who changed, or something else, but either way, I grew apart from my paleontological goals. I spent middle school and much of high school unsure of what to do, ultimately settling on STEM. I realized I liked engineering, and I loved music (something else I'd done since childhood), and I wanted to do something with the two. Fast-forward to college, and I'm successfully pursuing two specific degrees that combine my interests.

 

However, I have rekindled my love for paleontology in the last few years. It's a love that's healing and growing fast by the day. And I find myself continuously contemplating what life would be like if I stuck with it. I occasionally zone out in my classes, absentmindedly reading articles on various topics in paleontology. Now, I made a promise to myself and my family (since understanding the fleeting characteristics of my interests) that I wouldn't jump around on a whim based on whatever interests me by the day. I am sticking with my current career plans because I legitimately love my choices and I see a good future for myself with it. But I cannot ignore my intense desire to pursue paleontology in some way. Many would say that I don't need to drop whatever I'm doing right now in order to fulfill that desire, and they would be right. But I'm rather impatient, and every day that I cannot get my hands on fossils or get in the field or get in a museum, I grow restless. 
 

I kind-of want to get another degree after college/grad school for engineering in geology/biology, money and time willing. Learning in a university-medium for things I'm interested in is really important to me. Is it possible to go back to grad school for another Master's degree for something totally unrelated to my other Bachelor's/Master's degree? Or would it be wiser to go through undergrad again for such a degree.

 

I guess what I'm asking is for anyone on the forum actively working in the field of paleontology to offer me advice on how I can incorporate my interests in some scholarly way. Or, anyone in general who has dealt with difficulties of not being able to actively participate in this wonderful interest we all have and overcoming such a feeling as I have. 

 

Apologies if this is a shallow question that has been answered before, or even too deep of a question that is out-of-place on an internet forum, but I didn't know who to ask!

[erose]

Good luck with this new path.  Paleontologists come in many flavors but they generally break down into the ones that emphasize geology and the ones heavy on biology. You need both in the long run. Lots of great schools out there. You should check out their departments and see what each requires in the way of undergraduate credits.

 

 

[Fossildude19]

Speaking from a purely practical view, ... I think establishing a career in your chosen field should be first priority.  You have to pay the bills.  
Quite honestly, ... Paleontology is not a field with lots of jobs, or money in it. 

 

Once you have started a career, you can go to school part time, to get any required/desired schooling. 

Personally, I have never been one to learn through academia, and have been much happier learning things on my own. 

The lack of access to scientific papers can be a barrier, but overall, if I have an interest in something, I can read about it somewhere online.

Hope you are able to find a balance for yourself.

 

 

[connorp]

Agree with @Fossildude19. Get a good paying job with your EE degree and pursue paleontology avocationally.

[automech]

Hello fellow enthusiast. I'm replying as a hobbyist in the field. And, a dad. As many has said on this forum, this is an addicting hobby. But I've read, in past posts, from older folks here that there isn't much money to be made in paleontology anymore. That's kind of what I wanted to focus on here. Electrical engineering is a great field to be in and, will supply you with a consistent income. That's what's needed to pay rent/mortgage and put food on the table. As you say, another degree later on for paleo would be fine. Establish yourself with a stable job after you get out of college then see what happens. 

 

I'm going to guess that you're in your early twenties. So, I can understand the impatience. But, saying " every day that I cannot get my hands on fossils or get in the field or get in a museum, I grow restless." is/can be a dangerous thing. Believe me, after reading the field reports and looking at the ID section, I zone out a lot! Even while talking to my wife!

I think you're on the right track by volunteering at the Laurel, MD site. Make the most of that for now. 

 

One last thing to keep in mind. And, I could be wrong about it. From what I understand, funding for paleo departments in museums (and colleges?) comes from gov't grants. I.e. taxpayer money. We are in financially difficult times right now in this country. And, the world for that matter. It's going to get worse. So, keeping this fun hobby just that, a FUN HOBBY might be the smart move for the time being. 

 

[jpc]

alternatively, there are things a EE can do in paleo with high tech tools that a regular paleo person is baffled by.  When it is time to get that job, you maybe quite marketable as an EE.  There are needs everywhere, I imagine.  See if you can get a job in an area that has a paleontology museum or university dept and see if your EE skills can be used in some sort of partnership with those folks.  That may be a hobby thing you could do where paleo and EE come together.  And play in the band on Fri evenings.  

[FossilDAWG]

I spent a lot of time deciding whether to major in biology or geology/paleontology.  In the end I decided to go the biology route and keep paleo as a serious hobby.  In a small part that decision was helped by talking to friends at the Geological Survey of Canada who told me they knew 20 paleo PhDs delivering pizzas for every one working in the field.  Anyway I’ve never regretted my decision (well, maybe a little bit once in a while).  I run a research lab, train grad students, and teach (which I quite enjoy) including in the tropics and the Galapagos (which I really enjoy).  I have my fossils as a stress reliever when I have time.

Also I have heard from a lot of people that things change a lot when your hobby becomes your job.  There’s always more stress and responsibility that comes with a work situation.  Consider as well that as a professional paleontologist you probably won’t be allowed to keep a personal collection, or at best you can’t collect for yourself while on the job.  It’s too much of a conflict of interest.

I’m not saying to forget about a career path in paleo, just make decisions with your eyes wide open.

 

Don

[Andúril Flame of the West]

I severely lack the knowledge and experience that other members have already shared in this thread, but I will still pitch in my two cents. From a practicality perspective, careers in paleontology aren't what one would call lucrative and as others have mentioned, it does seem that new opportunities in the field are dwindling. I still recall when I first met a paleontologist when I was quite young (it was a very grand experience at the time), and when I inquired about the field he offered one piece of advice: go be a lawyer. That being said, there are career opportunities available that may not immediately come to mind when thinking of paleontology. More obscure fields or positions - such as the applications of electrical engineering to paleontology that @jpc mentioned - or even careers such as science communication may be appealing and would keep you in touch with the field of paleontology. 

 

From a different perspective, it truly depends on what you feel comfortable setting as your career path. There are countless teachers out there who readily admit that they do not have the highest paying jobs. They felt the desire to pursue those careers since they felt passionate about it, and perhaps they also felt a sort of significance in imparting knowledge to others. I have not spoken to many paleontologists personally, but I would imagine that many have chosen to go that route owing to their passion for the subject. Hopefully my perspective does not confuse things more.

 

As you mentioned in your original post, this is a deep question for an internet forum. There is a vast collection of knowledge on this forum that we are very lucky to have, but I personally feel that it is nigh impossible to provide complete advice through the forum. If I was in your position, I would suggest contacting Dr. Weems (if you haven't already) and speaking to him about his experience. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Andúril Flame of the West

[patelinho7]

20 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

Speaking from a purely practical view, ... I think establishing a career in your chosen field should be first priority.  You have to pay the bills.  
Quite honestly, ... Paleontology is not a field with lots of jobs, or money in it. 

 

This is most probably the right move for me right now. Especially since I don't dislike what I do. I started undergrad planning on doing computer science, but I quickly found I disliked it for a multitude of reasons! At least I enjoy my current career plans, so I won't proceed through my 20s/30s feeling unsatisfied. It's funny, two of the things I've felt incredibly passionate about (music and paleontology) are some of the hardest career paths economically  luckily I'm blessed with the means to pick another field altogether while still being able to keep in touch with my other interests. Thanks to everyone who echoed this advice.

 

 

19 hours ago, jpc said:

alternatively, there are things a EE can do in paleo with high tech tools that a regular paleo person is baffled by.  When it is time to get that job, you maybe quite marketable as an EE.  There are needs everywhere, I imagine.  See if you can get a job in an area that has a paleontology museum or university dept and see if your EE skills can be used in some sort of partnership with those folks.  That may be a hobby thing you could do where paleo and EE come together.  And play in the band on Fri evenings.  

 

Thanks for this! I have wondered about the applications of EE in the context of paleontology but never known how much an EE skillset could be valued in that field. Hearing it from you makes me feel optimistic that I'll find a way to combine whatever I'm doing together. My father (who is an EE working in wireless communications) did a project when he was younger where he worked to set up wireless coverage in national parks (Shenandoah, to name one). Perhaps a similar type of solution is still necessary in certain remote dig sites. "And play in the band on Fri evenings" Haha, yes that would be fun.

 

 

19 hours ago, FossilDAWG said:

Also I have heard from a lot of people that things change a lot when your hobby becomes your job.  There’s always more stress and responsibility that comes with a work situation.  Consider as well that as a professional paleontologist you probably won’t be allowed to keep a personal collection, or at best you can’t collect for yourself while on the job.  It’s too much of a conflict of interest.

 

This is really good to know. I've been curious about this for a while now, and this confirms my assumptions. It makes sense, but it is also a bit of a deterrent for me. I would love to be a part of the scientific process, but at the end of the day, the "little kid" part of me wants to have a shelf in my room with my best finds. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

 

Thanks to everyone who provided me with wise counsel!! I'm glad I ended up asking, I got a lot of the help I was searching for and more. And if any other people read this that are in my shoes, I hope it helps them.

 

-Kailash 

[patelinho7]

20 hours ago, automech said:

Hello fellow enthusiast. I'm replying as a hobbyist in the field. And, a dad. As many has said on this forum, this is an addicting hobby. But I've read, in past posts, from older folks here that there isn't much money to be made in paleontology anymore. That's kind of what I wanted to focus on here. Electrical engineering is a great field to be in and, will supply you with a consistent income. That's what's needed to pay rent/mortgage and put food on the table. As you say, another degree later on for paleo would be fine. Establish yourself with a stable job after you get out of college then see what happens. 

 

I'm going to guess that you're in your early twenties. So, I can understand the impatience. But, saying " every day that I cannot get my hands on fossils or get in the field or get in a museum, I grow restless." is/can be a dangerous thing. Believe me, after reading the field reports and looking at the ID section, I zone out a lot! Even while talking to my wife!

I think you're on the right track by volunteering at the Laurel, MD site. Make the most of that for now. 

 

One last thing to keep in mind. And, I could be wrong about it. From what I understand, funding for paleo departments in museums (and colleges?) comes from gov't grants. I.e. taxpayer money. We are in financially difficult times right now in this country. And, the world for that matter. It's going to get worse. So, keeping this fun hobby just that, a FUN HOBBY might be the smart move for the time being. 

 

 

Thanks for the advice. I am in my early twenties and most susceptible to spontaneous, rash decisions . Thanks for the warning, haha. And very good point about the fragility of the money flow going to research.

[patelinho7]

13 hours ago, Andúril Flame of the West said:

I severely lack the knowledge and experience that other members have already shared in this thread, but I will still pitch in my two cents. From a practicality perspective, careers in paleontology aren't what one would call lucrative and as others have mentioned, it does seem that new opportunities in the field are dwindling. I still recall when I first met a paleontologist when I was quite young (it was a very grand experience at the time), and when I inquired about the field he offered one piece of advice: go be a lawyer. That being said, there are career opportunities available that may not immediately come to mind when thinking of paleontology. More obscure fields or positions - such as the applications of electrical engineering to paleontology that @jpc mentioned - or even careers such as science communication may be appealing and would keep you in touch with the field of paleontology. 

 

From a different perspective, it truly depends on what you feel comfortable setting as your career path. There are countless teachers out there who readily admit that they do not have the highest paying jobs. They felt the desire to pursue those careers since they felt passionate about it, and perhaps they also felt a sort of significance in imparting knowledge to others. I have not spoken to many paleontologists personally, but I would imagine that many have chosen to go that route owing to their passion for the subject. Hopefully my perspective does not confuse things more.

 

As you mentioned in your original post, this is a deep question for an internet forum. There is a vast collection of knowledge on this forum that we are very lucky to have, but I personally feel that it is nigh impossible to provide complete advice through the forum. If I was in your position, I would suggest contacting Dr. Weems (if you haven't already) and speaking to him about his experience. 

 

I wholly appreciate your point about teachers. I definitely want to be able to pay my bills comfortably. However, I personally hold loving what I do above just getting money. I wouldn't be able to live happily making big money if I didn't truly enjoy it. Luckily, I do enjoy what I do. But nevertheless, good to keep in mind. And good idea to contact Dr. Weems, I may end up doing so!

[Jared C]

I'm close to this because I'm an undergrad focused on paleo, as a Zoology major. I'm going to be very real here and say things that I'm not usually comfortable saying, but for an important decision like this, raw advice from the experience of doing the thing you have in mind is what will help you best, so here's what I have.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

I am very keenly aware that statistically, most paleo PhD's don't find work. To stand out, you must have something really strong going for you.

The only reason I've decided I can commit to this path is my very large social media accounts committed to the science. The reality is, there is nothing that schools or museums like more than clout and positive exposure. I know that as I continue to grow on the two platforms I'm active on, I can bring that to them, and it has found me good fortune with grants and acceptances on the schools sides at least, already.

 

Plus, when you reach a certain size as a content creator, you can do solely that and still sustain yourself. I don't produce enough content to do so alone, since i'm extremely busy with school, but even then from one good video I've made enough just from views to cover 4/5 of my fall tuition. On top of that, there are brand deals and sponsorships that pay well, and as you grow in size, you can start asking more from companies. Self sufficiency is possible if you're creative enough.

 

Paleontology therefore, doesn't just have to be a "do research and make money by teaching at the university you work for" path. I'm using paleontology as a tool to make me marketable by guaranteeing exposure to a large audience if you work with me. And, with that, I know I have better odds of making it into a university or museum as a researcher (provided I have good research behind me).

 

That said though, being "internet-famous" is still no guarantee of getting you wherever you want to go financially. I'm having a real struggle right now balancing school and the time to make posts. To stay relevant on social media, you have to stay active. That said, one can always make a come-back after a break, but each break you take leads to a financial dip. It's just about finding a balance. 

 

---------------------------------------------

 

There have been points made about it being a job ruining the charm of paleo. This has not been my experience so far. I'm actually quite grateful that the thing I love so much is what is paying the bills. As long as you also have other hobbies that bring you other joys that you regularly do, you probably won't lose your love for it. 

 

-------------------------------------------

 

That said, I still think you should pursue EE since you're so far into it already. Plus.... Engineers/programmers, etc. burning out and switching to paleo halfway through their life is a tale as old as time  

 

For example: Michael J. Polcyn is a mosasaur paleontologist firmly at the top of his field, at SMU. His transition came well into adulthood; he was previously a successful engineer, and at the side he started conducting his own paleo research. He was published a few times and eventually was noticed by folks at SMU he was directly networking with (taking them out to the field, asking them to hop in with his research, etc.). From there, he was offered a job. His degree was in engineering. He's a professor and professional paleontologist now. 

 

Another big name, Mike Everhart, published his first paper in his forties. Now you see his name on papers everywhere. 

 

So, as you can see, you won't be too late. I do suggest you start doing your own research though, like Polcyn did, to still get your foot in the door at the side. Write abstracts for fun, amend existing papers, fossil hunt a lot and find something big worth describing!

After all, chance favors the prepared mind.

 

 

 

[sixgill pete]

I am not going to disagree with what @Jared C stated. There are newer and more unconventional ways to make it in paleontology. However, I have an electrical engineering degree that I did not complete until my early 40's (I'm now 63) but I have always worked in the field some way or another. I absolutely love what I do, but I am not your everyday EE. I am hands on. I design, install, repair control systems for a major pharmaceutical manufacturer. In addition, I also work on all of the electrical, PLC and controls for this company my location. This helps keep me from being burned out from an office job. I spend little time in my office as compared to out on the floor. My pay is probably slightly less than some EE's but, I do very well. 

 

With that said, I love paleontology. I work have closely with several paleontologists who have may publications under their belts (though most of them have other jobs to pay the bills) and am currently working on my first self-authored scientific paper. Each of us has our own approach that we must figure out. Sometimes it does take a few years under the belt to get it fully figured out.

[patelinho7]

Thank you for wanting to taking the time to provide me with such an elaborate response @Jared C. I really like your strategy and ideas on making paleontology (or rather any niche career for that matter) work for you. Being creative is a great idea. I suppose I have already tried that with my music interests. I never actually said it yet, but I am a classically (western) trained violinist. I love the chance to progress more as a classical musician. However, my major pertains to music technology. I really enjoy that too, and there’s a direct tie to electrical engineering that I can take and leverage in my job search to find unique jobs that I am very qualified for. I just have to be creative in balancing and using my abilities to figure out a way to do what I want and apply it to paleo.

 

Your strategy as a content creator is very impressive and congratulations, even if you haven’t been able to make as much content recently, the ability to pay off a little tuition from it is amazing! I assume you’re talking about your YouTube (side note, I really enjoy your videos thus far), monetization as a smaller scale creator seems so difficult these days so kudos to you!

 

And I’ve heard of Michael Polcyn but never ever heard of his career path! Thanks for pointing that out!

[grandpa]

9 hours ago, Jared C said:

I still think you should pursue EE since you're so far into it already.

Choosing a path in life is such an individual thing, best determined  by YOU for YOU.  It is good that you are seeking counsel from others to understand various issues that you might face. 

 

I, however would not presume to be able to provide you with valuable advice, given our age and experience differences,

 

EXCEPT to say that I strongly agree with @Jared C and others who have counseled you to finish what you have started in EE and music.  You have put a lot into this and the value harvested from it is exponentially greater if you have the completed degree to show for it.  That way you always have this field to fall back on should you change your mind back or need it as future insurance should Plan B not work out.  I can also almost guarantee that any additional learning you do in the EE/Music field will not go to waste.

 

Who knows the EE/Music vein might prove to be the way you find to augment your Paleo income! 

[Jared C]

18 minutes ago, patelinho7 said:

Your strategy as a content creator is very impressive and congratulations, even if you haven’t been able to make as much content recently, the ability to pay off a little tuition from it is amazing! I assume you’re talking about your YouTube (side note, I really enjoy your videos thus far), monetization as a smaller scale creator seems so difficult these days so kudos to you!

I appreciate that, monetization for me comes from TikTok rather. My YouTube was an experiment I dabbled in, but I was spread too thin so I put YT on hold for a bit.

 

I encourage anyone to dabble in content creation even if their following isn’t large. As long as one keeps it classy and authentic, your content can get you noticed by people in your desired field.

And for paleo at least, stay extremely tight-lipped about locations  . Even more important in the online realm.

[Mahnmut]

Hi,

I can only agree with the above.

Maybe I can add my grain of wisdom concerning masters degrees:

I am a physician, although before that I aborted studying natural sciences for complicated reasons.

Some years ago I realized that I want to do something less anthropocentric, so I started looking for options.

So far I found out that being in love of nature (with, I believe, a broad but informal education) is not enough to get a job that feeds you.

So I started studying again while working 30 hours a week to get a masters degree in applied environmental sciences.

Being allowed to the masters degree without a fitting bachelor was possible, though not guaranteed. The university was quite accomodating, they recognized my work at the poison emergency call as nature related enough. That may be connected to the fact that part-time distance learning is quite lucrative for the university, regular studies being free in germany.

All went well enough, I passed all my exams.

At the moment here I am, with all exams passed and no masters thesis. I never wrote more than 10 pages of anything resembling scientific work, so I am having a hard time knowing how to start.

But, to come back to your question: its possible to make a masters degree alien to your bachelor if you find a university that wants you and can give them something they can call a connection.

where we come back to the other good advice above...

Best Regards,

J

[hadrosauridae]

Just to pile onto what has already been said.  Get a job in the EE field while you work on education for the area you have a passion for.

 

Now, as a 50+ year old grandpa who is eyeing a retirement date sooner rather than later....  Working in a job you love is great, but money is money and later in life you will need a lot more than your can realize now.  If you can make good money and begin financing your retirement NOW, do that and follow your passion as a serious hobby.  You may love the idea of becoming a paleontologist, but there are way, WAY more students than jobs in the field. That job field has ZERO love for you.  Look up paleo job openings around the country.  They want applicants to have a doctorate degree with 3 years experience in a specified field to be bottom level worker, on an 18 month contract, for 36k a year.  Thats not even an exaggeration, I have seen job openings just like that.  

Talk to lots of professional paleontologists working today.  Talk to them specifically about career paths, job competition, pay scales, retirement, insurance benefits and more.  In the end, ask yourself if you are prepared to spend 6-8 years of full time schooling (with the debt to go with it) plus probably expected years of internships and volunteering to work on every project that crosses your path just to have a shot at this field.  

[sharkdoctor]

I agree with so much that has been shared here. I'm in Northern Virginia, have a professional career as a scientist in a non-paleo field and am a professional-amateur paleontologist. I contribute to professional paleo publications on a regular basis with local professionals, have an appointment as a Research Associate at a museum, and get to participate in the science of paleo at an advanced level.

 

1. I'd be happy to talk with you and share my experiences. Feel free to DM me.

2. Yes, you can use your professional skills in an unrelated field to advance paleo. Its great fun and allows you bring a novel perspective to the field.

3. A lot of hard-won wisdom has been shared in this thread. I hope you can hear it.

[Rock Hound]

On 9/21/2023 at 12:40 PM, Fossildude19 said:

You have to pay the bills.  
Quite honestly, ... Paleontology is not a field with lots of jobs, or money in it. 

Unfortunately, this is true about many enjoyable endeavors.  It is very sad.....

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Rock Hound