pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 A new pliosaur from the Kimmeridgian deposits at Kimmedige has just been revealed to the world! Rumours have been going around about it for some time, but now the source of the rumours has been revealed, and it's spectacular! Belonging to the genus Pliosaurus, to judge from it's age and tooth morphology, it's one of the best preserved - if not best preserved - skull of its kind! https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-67650247?fbclid=IwAR3ukvNzGPSxBdhBp3Z3zrIEJZEbDki1ezYhSrCaLjpYVUIsc_nOGPexuDs 4 13 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darktooth Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Wow! What an incredible find! 1 I like Trilo-butts and I cannot lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Wow! I wouldn't want to be his dentist. 2 Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Quite a bit of undistorting and reconstruction done from how it was originally uncovered. Wonder where they got the teeth from? Curious to know if these were found associated with the skull or if these are all custom made by the preparator acting in a dental capacity? It's nice to see the skull inflated and undistorted but I wonder how many assumptions are made in doing such a complete restoration like this? Before: Cheers. -Ken 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMert Posted December 10, 2023 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Great specimen! Steve Etches at the cutting edge Pity I can't read it My sites & reports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 10, 2023 Author Share Posted December 10, 2023 1 hour ago, RuMert said: Great specimen! Steve Etches at the cutting edge Pity I can't read it Here's a PDF-version of the article... Pliosaur discovery Huge sea monster emerges from Dorset cliffs - BBC News.pdf 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 10, 2023 Author Share Posted December 10, 2023 4 hours ago, digit said: Quite a bit of undistorting and reconstruction done from how it was originally uncovered. [...] It's nice to see the skull inflated and undistorted but I wonder how many assumptions are made in doing such a complete restoration like this? Before: I wonder whether it's actually been reconstructed... To me it seems like the skull's just plastically deformed and they didn't do anything to correct it, except apply photogrammetric undistortion. If you compare the annotated photograph with the one of the very tip of the rostrum, for example, you'll notice the same amount of contortion as appears to be the case in other images of that part of the skull. Also the various skull bones from the annotated photograph seem to overly exactly the same ones in the cleaned up overview photograph, giving me the impression nothing much changed (except for covering up the missing parts) between these two photographs, except for the angle the photograph was taken at (which seems an odd angle in the overview shot anyway. 4 hours ago, digit said: Curious to know if these were found associated with the skull or if these are all custom made by the preparator acting in a dental capacity? I don't really know. But as I've heard talk about casts of this specimen's teeth, I can only presume at least some were found with the fossil itself. 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creek - Don Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Here's the video from BBC. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 11, 2023 Author Share Posted December 11, 2023 Since we're talking about pliosaurs and the Etches Collection here anyway: anybody recognize the brand of pliosaur model/toy they've used in this video: 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 11, 2023 Author Share Posted December 11, 2023 10 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Since we're talking about pliosaurs and the Etches Collection here anyway: anybody recognize the brand of pliosaur model/toy they've used in this video: Never mind... Seems to be the Papo Kronosaurus model. Not sure whether I like it more than Jeff from PSNO, now that I've seen it elsewhere, though 🤷♂️ 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Hunter Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 The BBC special on this airs in US on Feb 14th on PBS. I learned a new word, newton, thought this bite comparison was fascinating as well as the tooth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 27, 2023 Author Share Posted December 27, 2023 On 12/10/2023 at 7:38 PM, digit said: Curious to know if these were found associated with the skull or if these are all custom made by the preparator acting in a dental capacity? Just heard that only one original tooth was found with the skull, and that the others have, therefore, been custom made. Quite interesting in itself, since, because most of the skull was extracted from its primary depositional context, this would mean the teeth broke off prior to fossilization - especially because the bases of the crowns still remained in-place. 2 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPrice Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 16 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Just heard that only one original tooth was found with the skull, and that the others have, therefore, been custom made. Quite interesting in itself, since, because most of the skull was extracted from its primary depositional context, this would mean the teeth broke off prior to fossilization - especially because the bases of the crowns still remained in-place. Where can we read about that? Here's an excerpt from the PDF which says it is the most complete ever found and we'll get to see it on New Year's Day with David Attenborough. "The 2m-long fossil is one of the most complete specimens of its type ever discovered and is giving new insights into this ancient predator. The skull will be featured in a special David Attenborough programme on BBC One on New Year's Day." Attenborough and the Giant Sea Monster will air on BBC One and iPlayer at 20:00 on 1 January - a BBC Studios Natural History Unit production for the BBC and PBS with The WNET Group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 27, 2023 Author Share Posted December 27, 2023 27 minutes ago, SPrice said: Where can we read about that? I got this info off a reliable source who knows both the guy who found the original snout tip and the preperator, though it's indeed not mentioned anywhere on the official channels... 1 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPrice Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 Steve Etches says, "I stake my life the rest of the animal is there," he tells BBC News. And he wants the rest of it excavated from the cliff before it erodes out and is lost forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 27, 2023 Author Share Posted December 27, 2023 6 minutes ago, SPrice said: Steve Etches says, "I stake my life the rest of the animal is there," he tells BBC News. And he wants the rest of it excavated from the cliff before it erodes out and is lost forever. Yeah, I read that. Which makes it all the more interesting that the teeth had already gone missing at time of excavation. I mean, how do teeth like these get detached from a skull that's otherwise as complete as this one, moreover, when the rest of the skeleton is probably also still attached? It's quite puzzling... 🤔 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPrice Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 Same here...the snout was the first clue which eroded out and fell. Is the acidity high enough to dissolve the teeth during mineralization? IDK. I'm way down the ladder in the learning curve. Or would the teeth have fallen out/broken off and been washed away by currents during the fossilizing process. Seems they might be attached or right next to the skull during excavation? again IDK. Perhaps we'll learn more from the BBC Special Programme with Sir David Attenborough at the helm. Hope I can find it online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 27, 2023 Author Share Posted December 27, 2023 7 hours ago, SPrice said: Is the acidity high enough to dissolve the teeth during mineralization? No, it wouldn't have been. Enamel is a much harder substance than bone due its greater degree of mineralisation and would, as such, have offered a greater degree of preservation against any acidity that might have been at play. It's known from archaeological context that sometimes just teeth remain in a human burial, while the bones have been completely dissolved (admittedly, pliosaur bones are a lot bigger, and would therefore take more time to etch away - but you'd certainly see this in the preservation of what remains). Put differently, if the teeth would've dissolved away, the rest of the skull wouldn't have preserved the detail that it did either... 7 hours ago, SPrice said: Or would the teeth have fallen out/broken off and been washed away by currents during the fossilizing process. While possible, this, too, seems unlikely. That's because it would take a major current for the teeth to be broken off from the skull like that. For, can you imagine what manner of problem the pliosaur would've been in if the teeth were to break off during a small current? It simply wouldn't have been able to eat! So, no, not likely either. What's more, a current like that would've mashed up more than just the teeth and would've disarticulated the skeleton. Alternatively, something hard may have bumped into the teeth, causing them to break off. But, again, this would've likely disturbed the skull, if not other parts of the skeleton as well. Moreover, it would need to have happened on both sides of the skull, which makes such an explanation taphonomically unlikely. Barring the idea a time-traveling human with exact knowledge on the skull's location would've come by to play dentist, a more realistic, though still far-fetched explanation would be that the pliosaur, while still alive, bit down on something so hard (like, for example a rock that looked like a pray-item) that its teeth broke off, leaving it to starve to death. If this were to be the case, you would probably be able to tell from looking at the type of break (fresh versus dry bone) at the base of the crowns - although I'd immediately add that in this case you wouldn't expect all teeth to be so neatly broken off at the jawline. No, this is really weird... 7 hours ago, SPrice said: Seems they might be attached or right next to the skull during excavation? If that were the case, they'd have found them while doing the excavation, which is what I thought at first might've been the case, but turns out not to be. Also, there's no guarantee that the teeth wouldn't have been carried further away after breaking off. So I guess it'll remain something of a mystery - unless they do offer somewhat of an explanation during the documentary... I hope I'll be able to access it from mainland Europe 🙏 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezio Bonsignore Posted December 30, 2023 Share Posted December 30, 2023 Well, now this is really something. I mean, not the beast in itself, but rather the notion that while we are (rightly) chastising unscrupulous sellers who would repair a megalodon tooth' root or paint over the smaller bones of a keichosaurus, at the same time we are now discussing the possibility that people involved in what is supposed to be first-class scientific dig could have gingerly manipulated their find to add a handful of fake theet of their liking. I do understand that for the time being we simply don't know, but - should such a behaviour, if indeed proved/admitted, be regarded as acceptable "in the interest of Science"? Or, it's strongly reminiscent of Moroccan mosasaur jaw sellers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted December 30, 2023 Share Posted December 30, 2023 I see several teeth in this photo that Digit posted. I’m guessing the others were also broken and laying loose on the skull and were probably removed during prep of the skull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 30, 2023 Author Share Posted December 30, 2023 8 minutes ago, Al Dente said: I see several teeth in this photo that Digit posted. I’m guessing the others were also broken and laying loose on the skull and were probably removed during prep of the skull. True! Hadn't paid attention to those before...! But they're definitely there! However, so they are in the final reconstructed specimen, meaning these were left as is... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranzBernhard Posted December 30, 2023 Share Posted December 30, 2023 (edited) The backward(?) teeth are all broken off, but still there. The frontal ones are broken off and - are somewhere else. But these broken-offs are all at the snout that was found first and has been fallen from the cliff? FranzBernhard Edited December 30, 2023 by FranzBernhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 30, 2023 Author Share Posted December 30, 2023 58 minutes ago, FranzBernhard said: But these broken-offs are all at the snout that was found first and has been fallen from the cliff? That's what it looks like, yeah... Also, coming back to the point of how authentic the skull actually is: it does look like it's received a paint job, if nothing else. You can see gray lines and surfaces of restored areas while they're still working on the cranium, though these aren't visible any more later on, it seems... Now a bit of colour retouch isn't the absolute worst in the world, I think - though it does raise questions about the integrity of other parts of the skull... 🤔 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 30, 2023 Author Share Posted December 30, 2023 Sneak peek preview of Monday's show (or seems to be, at least), for those who haven't come across it yet: 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 31, 2023 Author Share Posted December 31, 2023 Some great shots of the skull in this video: 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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