New Members Klaus_Grizwold Posted January 28 New Members Share Posted January 28 I am not a tooth person, hope someone can help identify which animals these are from. I suspect most are Bison, with some elk mixed in as well. All were found along a river eroding through glacial Lake Agassiz beach ridge. Disregard the two bison petrous bones, I am going to send those in to get dated. Thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
val horn Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 It is a great collection but id req uires more pictures.Please number them and show the chewing surface as well as the sides, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 One really cool thing is that tricuspid tooth in the far lower right looks to be a deciduous tooth (baby tooth). dp4 of something. The one right next to it is a tricuspid m3. Lower rearmost molar. Those look cervid. As Val horn stated we need to see the chewing surface from above. To determine more than just general shape you’ll need to measure them or photo with a ruler. I know the teeth I commented on look cervid but don’t know if they are mule deer, white tail, antelope, elk, camelids… in contrast the tricuspid tooth center top row and also far right top row look bovid. Also rearmost molar lower jaw. Looks like at least one pre molar above the already discussed lower right teeth and above that with no root is one I’m interested in seeing for sure. Fun. Post the follow ups and I shall try again Jp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, Balance said: One really cool thing is that tricuspid tooth in the far lower right looks to be a deciduous tooth (baby tooth). dp4 of something. The one right next to it is a tricuspid m3. Lower rearmost molar. Those look cervid. Lower right tooth has stylids.... I think that means it must be bovid. If not, I'll learn something new. I am intensely interested in those 2 Bison petrosals... especially size and photos of both sides!!! I will to compare to Horse and modern cattle. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 @Shellseeker I was looking at this reference of a cervid dp4 (lower image specifically). The stylus’s are actually what caught my eye. ?? 🧐 Jp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 8 hours ago, Balance said: @Shellseeker I was looking at this reference of a cervid dp4 (lower image specifically). The stylus’s are actually what caught my eye. Who told you that it could be cervid? A bovid dp4 is a very rare find. See the thread below. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) Thanks , @Shellseeker ! Super informative. So the white tail deer dp4 stylids are pretty short but it does have some. Bovid definitely has monster stylids. Here’s where I’m stuck. The tooth next/left to the deciduous tooth has a dropped/lower down third cusp on it. That’s a cervid trait. What if we meet in the middle and that’s an Elk’s dp4? Because if that dropped third cusp tooth is cervid it’s too big for regular deer. Elk seems more likely. Starting the morning off with some brain twisting. Perfect Jp Edit: Elk dp4 for reference. Think you might be right about those stylids being too big… cervids can have stylids though. Just not as developed it seems. Edited January 29 by Balance Added new info 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 The teeth of bovids (cows) are hypsodont. The opposite condition, low-crowned teeth, is termed brachydont. Cervid teeth are brachydont. I don't understand the uncertainty about the lower left teeth: One is a cervid lower m3. The other is a bovid dp3. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 3 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said: The teeth of bovids (cows) are hypsodont. The opposite condition, low-crowned teeth, is termed brachydont. Cervid teeth are brachydont. I don't understand the uncertainty about the lower left teeth: One is a cervid lower m3. The other is a bovid dp3. So, Harry I hoped that you would respond. I agree with all you have said including the specific identifications. My confusion comes from the word stylid. but also I realize that my knowledge tends to be Florida centric. In your view, is what we see on the Elk tooth a stylid? or more to the point .. do some cervids have stylids? Thanks Jack 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 I don't know what to call those small irregularities. They don't seem to figure at all in descriptions of cervid teeth I read on-line. They may be insignificant because they are not a consistent feature even within one species, much less within a family like Cervidae. Call them whatever you like, understanding that they are not a conventional diagnostic feature. 1 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members Klaus_Grizwold Posted January 29 Author New Members Share Posted January 29 Thank you all for the great replies. I have taken out all the partial teeth, kept the same order, and numbered all them. Hopefully that helps keep us all straight. Please let me know if any other follow up pictures are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members Klaus_Grizwold Posted January 30 Author New Members Share Posted January 30 @Shellseeker please see additional photos above. Also, I took some more pictures of the petrous bones. I added pictures from two partial Bison, and an elk that have petrous bones still attached. Thank you for your interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 3 hours ago, Klaus_Grizwold said: @Shellseeker please see additional photos above. Also, I took some more pictures of the petrous bones. I added pictures from two partial Bison, and an elk that have petrous bones still attached. Thank you for your interest. Klaus, Thanks for this.. Getting late on the East Coast but I spend lots of time on Mammal ear bones and will certainly come up with observations and questions. More than a decade ago , I found this ear bone which turned out to be from a Horse, Equus .sp. Lots of great details from other TFF members in this old thread So this might have been a really large Horse, but based on sizes I would have expected Bison to have larger ear bones than Horse and it seems that the petrosals you are showing are a little over 40 mm. I guess it is possible that the ear bones could turn out to be Elk... This is going to be fun finding out. Glad you added photos of Bison Skulls, The feature in blue looks like it may become the determinate factor in Bison ear bone identification. My initial take on your 10 photos... 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,10 are Bovid (Bison or Bos) and that would be determined by size. Bison teeth are naturally bigger that equivalent age and sex of Bos -modern cattle. 1,2,4,5,6,7,10 all have Stylids only present in Bovid species. #6 looks Brachydont but it also seems to have a Stylid ??? I'll have to think more about this one and #8 9 is cervid , likely Elk in your state. The cervid in Florida is a camelid... Llama. Good thread , thanks for sharing the basis for this discussion. Jack The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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