Sensory pits in the jaw of Albertosaurus?

[Necropedia]

The idea that sensory pits were present in Theropod dinosaurs is not a new one, but for some reason I can't find any information on them and chat GPT says the presence of these structures in dinosaurs lacks fossil evidence. Below I present sensory pits in the jaw of an alligator and in the jaw of Albertosaurus. These pits are also known to be present in the jaws of some birds. 

 

In birds and crocodilians these sensory pits are believed to be used to detect vibrations in different substrates ( water for crocodilians and wood/soil for birds) in order to enhance prey detection and capture. 

 

My idea for sensory pits in Theropod dinosaurs (the ones that had them) is that they may have been used to detect prey in rotting logs or in shallow burrows. Why would large theropods have them? It is generally believed that young theropods were obviously alot smaller than the adults and probably ate things like insects or small vertebrates. I believe it is very likely that young Theropods used these sensory pits to help them locate these small animals that would be in substrates like wood  (rotting stumps?) or soil.  It's possible they were able to detect vibrations in the ground from approaching animals as a defense mechanism while they slept. 

 

It seems probable to me that these sensory pits may have been retained into adulthood by animals like Albertosaurus, etc...and lost by others. Of course these are believed to be present in piscivores like Baryonyx and Spinosaurus as well, which probably would have used them to enhance their fishing abilities. 

 

I intend to do some research into this and see if these sensory pits appear to be more common in juveniles ( where available) and how wide spread they were among Theropods in addition to the implications for feeding habits, etc in these animals as they aged. 

 

I would be interested in hearing some of your ideas about this. 

Edited March 10 by Necropedia
Opening discussion.

[North]

Article named: The rostral neurovascular system of tyrannosaurus rex, might be helpfull.

[NickG]

"and chat GPT says the presence of these structures in dinosaurs lacks fossil evidence"

 

Please, please, please do not use ChatGPT or other generative text tool as a search engine. They are NOT search engines. This is NOT how they work or how they were designed to work. 

 

Part of the issue is your query is flawed-- the correct term if 'neurovascular foramina' and these foramina serve multiple purposes such as providing exits for nerve and vascular bundles to supply blood to skin or other superficial tissue on the outside of the jaw. They aren't 'pits', they go all the way through the bone to wherever the trigeminal or facial nerve is present (depending on the taxon in question).

 

Their presence alone does not necessarily have to indicate a specialized sensory function, nor does their density. For instance, part of the issue at play for crocodylomorphs and the intense density of neurovascular foramina MAY be partly due to the tight adherence of the skin to the bone (the lowest layer of skin is actually fused into the outermost layer of bone) which does not allow for a lot of space for neurovascular bundles to exist. Compare to tetrapods with specialized sensory structures that have loose, floppy skin or those that have loose, floppy skin, but no specialized sensory structures present.

 

This is an area of research that still needs done and it cannot be determined by simply looking for the presence or density of neurovascular foramina alone. Some students have published Masters works on these areas but never pursued publication. 

[jpc]

45 minutes ago, NickG said:

 

 

Please, please, please do not use ChatGPT or other generative text tool as a search engine. They are NOT search engines. This is NOT how they work or how they were designed to work. 

 

 

This was my initial reaction as well.  If you are going to d online research Google Scholar is a much better source of info.  

 

[Necropedia]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:47 AM, NickG said:

"and chat GPT says the presence of these structures in dinosaurs lacks fossil evidence"

 

Please, please, please do not use ChatGPT or other generative text tool as a search engine. They are NOT search engines. This is NOT how they work or how they were designed to work. 

 

Part of the issue is your query is flawed-- the correct term if 'neurovascular foramina' and these foramina serve multiple purposes such as providing exits for nerve and vascular bundles to supply blood to skin or other superficial tissue on the outside of the jaw. They aren't 'pits', they go all the way through the bone to wherever the trigeminal or facial nerve is present (depending on the taxon in question).

 

Their presence alone does not necessarily have to indicate a specialized sensory function, nor does their density. For instance, part of the issue at play for crocodylomorphs and the intense density of neurovascular foramina MAY be partly due to the tight adherence of the skin to the bone (the lowest layer of skin is actually fused into the outermost layer of bone) which does not allow for a lot of space for neurovascular bundles to exist. Compare to tetrapods with specialized sensory structures that have loose, floppy skin or those that have loose, floppy skin, but no specialized sensory structures present.

 

This is an area of research that still needs done and it cannot be determined by simply looking for the presence or density of neurovascular foramina alone. Some students have published Masters works on these areas but never pursued publication. 

I've come to realize chat GPT isn't a super reliable source. I've used it to cross check chemical calculations I've done recently and it miscalculated nearly every time. 

 

I was hoping to use it to get more of a general idea about topics and then search them in further depth later. 

 

I seem to be making a habit of getting a little bit ahead of myself on some things recently. 

[Necropedia]

On 3/18/2024 at 9:34 AM, jpc said:

This was my initial reaction as well.  If you are going to d online research Google Scholar is a much better source of info.  

 

Google scholar is great, but doesn't always provide the information I'm looking for. I answered the initial poster in more detail but I realize now that chat GPT isn't as reliable as I thought it was. 

[Necropedia]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:47 AM, NickG said:

"and chat GPT says the presence of these structures in dinosaurs lacks fossil evidence"

 

Please, please, please do not use ChatGPT or other generative text tool as a search engine. They are NOT search engines. This is NOT how they work or how they were designed to work. 

 

Part of the issue is your query is flawed-- the correct term if 'neurovascular foramina' and these foramina serve multiple purposes such as providing exits for nerve and vascular bundles to supply blood to skin or other superficial tissue on the outside of the jaw. They aren't 'pits', they go all the way through the bone to wherever the trigeminal or facial nerve is present (depending on the taxon in question).

 

Their presence alone does not necessarily have to indicate a specialized sensory function, nor does their density. For instance, part of the issue at play for crocodylomorphs and the intense density of neurovascular foramina MAY be partly due to the tight adherence of the skin to the bone (the lowest layer of skin is actually fused into the outermost layer of bone) which does not allow for a lot of space for neurovascular bundles to exist. Compare to tetrapods with specialized sensory structures that have loose, floppy skin or those that have loose, floppy skin, but no specialized sensory structures present.

 

This is an area of research that still needs done and it cannot be determined by simply looking for the presence or density of neurovascular foramina alone. Some students have published Masters works on these areas but never pursued publication. 

I also got the sensory pit terminology off a paper I found on Google scholar that discussed their presence in birds and crocodilians. 

 

Thank you for the information. I will look further into this as I have time. 

[Necropedia]

On 3/18/2024 at 9:34 AM, jpc said:

This was my initial reaction as well.  If you are going to d online research Google Scholar is a much better source of info.  

 

I also got the sensory pit terminology from a paper that I found on Google scholar about birds. I didn't include the images from that because they aren't mine. 

[Necropedia]

On 3/9/2024 at 9:15 PM, North said:

Article named: The rostral neurovascular system of tyrannosaurus rex, might be helpfull.

Thank you. I'll look into this. 

[Necropedia]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:47 AM, NickG said:

"and chat GPT says the presence of these structures in dinosaurs lacks fossil evidence"

 

Please, please, please do not use ChatGPT or other generative text tool as a search engine. They are NOT search engines. This is NOT how they work or how they were designed to work. 

 

Part of the issue is your query is flawed-- the correct term if 'neurovascular foramina' and these foramina serve multiple purposes such as providing exits for nerve and vascular bundles to supply blood to skin or other superficial tissue on the outside of the jaw. They aren't 'pits', they go all the way through the bone to wherever the trigeminal or facial nerve is present (depending on the taxon in question).

 

Their presence alone does not necessarily have to indicate a specialized sensory function, nor does their density. For instance, part of the issue at play for crocodylomorphs and the intense density of neurovascular foramina MAY be partly due to the tight adherence of the skin to the bone (the lowest layer of skin is actually fused into the outermost layer of bone) which does not allow for a lot of space for neurovascular bundles to exist. Compare to tetrapods with specialized sensory structures that have loose, floppy skin or those that have loose, floppy skin, but no specialized sensory structures present.

 

This is an area of research that still needs done and it cannot be determined by simply looking for the presence or density of neurovascular foramina alone. Some students have published Masters works on these areas but never pursued publication. 

I have found that chat GPT is useful for pulling up publications, like if you have a question and then ask for references it will provide a list. 

 

I'm really interested in this subject as I can see the functionality of a sensory Organ in the jaw/face being really useful to young Theropods and maybe having some residual function as an adult. 

[doushantuo]

e.g.:

Carr, T. D. et al. A new tyrannosaur with evidence for anagenesis and crocodile-like
facial sensory system. Sci. Rep. 7, 44942; doi: 10.1038/srep44942 (2017)

size: below 2 mB

srep44942 (1).pdf

 

Thomas D. Carr, David J. Varricchio, Jayc C. Sedlmayr, Eric M. Robert  & Jason R. Moore

 

Proc. R. Soc. B (2011) 278, 3625–3634
doi:10.1098/rspb.2011.0238

Evolution of olfaction in non-avian theropod dinosaurs and birds
Darla K. Zelenitsky, Francois Therrien, Ryan C. Ridgely, Amanda R. McGee and Lawrence M. Witmer

(size: less than 1 mB)

 

 

 

rspb20110238.pdf

Edited March 20 by doushantuo

[doushantuo]

Modified skulls but conservative brains? The palaeoneurology and endocranial anatomy of baryonychine dinosaurs (Theropoda: Spinosauridae)

Journal of Anatomy, june 2023
 

doi.org/10.1111/joa.13837

Chris Tijani Barker, Darren Naish, Jacob Trend, Lysanne Veerle Michels, Lawrence Witmer, Ryan Ridgley, Katy Rankin, Claire E. Clarkin, Philipp Schneider, Neil J. Gostling

size: about 22 mB

joa023 -baupla Barkerveerlgostlibaryonytheropkullsridgleyt conservativeeurologyendocranial anatomy.pdf

Edited March 20 by doushantuo

[NickG]

6 hours ago, Necropedia said:

I have found that chat GPT is useful for pulling up publications, like if you have a question and then ask for references it will provide a list. 

 

I'm really interested in this subject as I can see the functionality of a sensory Organ in the jaw/face being really useful to young Theropods and maybe having some residual function as an adult. 

It will also massively hallucinate different citations. You can get better results from a scholarly search engine or library database. 
 

[doushantuo]

Necro: I'd very much take NickG' s advice to heart.

Try to find peer-reviewed literature using the tools that are developed for such a purpose , and remain cognizant of the fact that 

said literature eschews heterodoxy.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20 by doushantuo

[NickG]

7 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

Necro: I'd very much take NickG' s advice to heart.

Try to find peer-reviewed literature using the tools that are developed for such a purpose , and remain cognizant of the fact that 

said literature eschews heterodoxy.

 

 

 

 

The issue I see is most papers that have published on this topic and attempted to infer function (and consequently behavior) haven't done the foundational work necessary to establish-

 

1) How do we know a sensory structure is present?

2) How do we know these foramina don't serve another function? 

3) How do we know these foramina have a function at all (as opposed to being a spandrel)?

 

We need to better understand these foramina, their distribution, structure, etc, in modern taxa. No one has done the foundational work and gotten it published.

 

I would fixate less on literature inferring such a system in theropods, and focus on reading the literature where such a system is studied in a group where it is known (crocodylians for instance) where you will find the limits of our understanding are well established.

e.g. p. 671, 679 in George and Holliday (2013)- https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1002/ar.22666

The discussion section (pp. 2664-2667) in Bowman et al. https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1002/ar.24733

The entirety of Lessner et al. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/joa.13826

 

 

[Necropedia]

2 hours ago, NickG said:

The issue I see is most papers that have published on this topic and attempted to infer function (and consequently behavior) haven't done the foundational work necessary to establish-

 

1) How do we know a sensory structure is present?

2) How do we know these foramina don't serve another function? 

3) How do we know these foramina have a function at all (as opposed to being a spandrel)?

 

We need to better understand these foramina, their distribution, structure, etc, in modern taxa. No one has done the foundational work and gotten it published.

 

I would fixate less on literature inferring such a system in theropods, and focus on reading the literature where such a system is studied in a group where it is known (crocodylians for instance) where you will find the limits of our understanding are well established.

e.g. p. 671, 679 in George and Holliday (2013)- https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1002/ar.22666

The discussion section (pp. 2664-2667) in Bowman et al. https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1002/ar.24733

The entirety of Lessner et al. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/joa.13826

 

 

The papers I have been considering haven't necessarily involved dinosaurs directly, but has studied structures like these in birds and crocodilians. 

 

Here is a link to one such paper. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230691222_Functional_association_of_bill_morphology_and_foraging_behaviour_in_calidrid_sandpipers

 

Research gate is where I found a PDF available without a pay wall. Thank you for the additional information, I will be glad to look at the publications you sent. 

 

[NickG]

I would suggest also reading foundational papers like Witmer in the 1990s which goes over how we can infer soft tissue structures (which is ultimately the underlying question here -- what soft tissue structure is inhabiting these hard tissue structures--the foramina) in the fossil record.

 

Witmer 1995 https://people.ohio.edu/witmerl/Downloads/1995_Witmer_Extant_Phylogenetic_Bracket.pdf

As well as Witmer, L. (1997). The Evolution of the Antorbital Cavity of Archosaurs: A Study in Soft-Tissue Reconstruction in the Fossil Record with an Analysis of the Function of Pneumaticity. Society of Vertebrate Paleontology Memoir, no. 3, p. 1-76. https://doi.org/10.1080/02724634.1997.10011027

[Necropedia]

3 hours ago, NickG said:

I would suggest also reading foundational papers like Witmer in the 1990s which goes over how we can infer soft tissue structures (which is ultimately the underlying question here -- what soft tissue structure is inhabiting these hard tissue structures--the foramina) in the fossil record.

 

Witmer 1995 https://people.ohio.edu/witmerl/Downloads/1995_Witmer_Extant_Phylogenetic_Bracket.pdf

As well as Witmer, L. (1997). The Evolution of the Antorbital Cavity of Archosaurs: A Study in Soft-Tissue Reconstruction in the Fossil Record with an Analysis of the Function of Pneumaticity. Society of Vertebrate Paleontology Memoir, no. 3, p. 1-76. https://doi.org/10.1080/02724634.1997.10011027

I will definitely give these a read. I'm also considering what animals are known that do have these foramina but don't have sensory structures connected with them.  The null hypothesis in this scenario is that these foramina have no underlying connection to sensory structures so we should expect to see  a similar frequency  of foramina like these  in animals that don't have crocodile- like sensory structures in the jaw/head  or absence of them in animals that do happen to have sensory structures analogous to the sensory structures in crocodilians in the jaw/head

 

Aside from the existing literature, I think a statistical analysis in the occurrence of these foramina in  animals across extant archosaurs ( birds and crocodilians),  in addition to animals that are known to have sensory organs in the face but may not have the foramina seen in archosaurs ( some mammals), or animals that may have these foramina  and may not have analogous sensory structures in the face (squamates) would be enlightening. 

 

From a preliminary search and what I  have physically seen so far  in the bones, it appears that there is a connection in birds and crocodilians between these foramina and the sensory structures in question, which would imply they had similar functions in dinosaurs if we apply phylogenetic bracketing. At the same time, dinosaurs did some weird things biologically so I think it would be important to consider all living taxa that could be used as an analog in this case. 

 

Thank you again for all of the information and for your  valuable insight as well!

Edited March 20 by Necropedia