Doctor Mud Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 Hi folks. I found this very dense bone today. It was already weathered out of the Siltstone. It’s 16cm or 6 inches long most likely late Pliocene I think definitely cetacean and wondered about premaxilla. “Top” oyster shell attached top of picture remains of barnacles visible in other photos. ends. Note the canals. Couple of oblique views to show surface texture such as longitudinal grooves thanks for looking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemipristis Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 Interesting in that it is solid bone, with none of the porous/spongy marrow (there's probably another more technical term). I'll be curious to hear the specialists' take. @Boesse 1 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 16 minutes ago, hemipristis said: Interesting in that it is solid bone, with none of the porous/spongy marrow (there's probably another more technical term).Ill be curious to hear the specialists' take. @Boesse It’s very dense and heavy that’s for sure! Thanks for putting out the call for Bobby. sure he’ll have an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 1 hour ago, Doctor Mud said: Hi folks. I found this very dense bone today. It was already weathered out of the Siltstone. It’s 16cm or 6 inches long most likely late Pliocene Have dugong bones ever been found in the area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted March 25 Author Share Posted March 25 17 hours ago, Al Dente said: Have dugong bones ever been found in the area? None yet in New Zealand. I imagine it’s possible that their distribution extended into New Zealand waters in the past pre Pleistocene though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 (edited) This is something else I was weighing up against mysticete premaxilla. part of a beaked whale rostrum. here’s one I photographed a few years ago at Te Papa. But I think there would be sutures inside? Edited March 26 by Doctor Mud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivaldir Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Interesting piece! Just my amateur idea: I think Doctor Mud is onto something. The beaked whale rostrum has some of the highest bone density known to animals, explaining the lack of porosity. Cozzi B, Panin M, Butti C, Podestà M, Zotti A. Bone density distribution patterns in the rostrum of delphinids and beaked whales: evidence of family-specific evolutive traits. Anat Rec (Hoboken). 2010 Feb;293(2):235-42. doi: 10.1002/ar.21044. PMID: 20027645. This picture is if a beaked whale from the Victorias museum web page (just after an internet search, no affiliation): I can see it fit. Do I see some suture lines on the side of the third picture maybe? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 On 3/27/2024 at 2:53 AM, Ivaldir said: Interesting piece! Just my amateur idea: I think Doctor Mud is onto something. The beaked whale rostrum has some of the highest bone density known to animals, explaining the lack of porosity. Cozzi B, Panin M, Butti C, Podestà M, Zotti A. Bone density distribution patterns in the rostrum of delphinids and beaked whales: evidence of family-specific evolutive traits. Anat Rec (Hoboken). 2010 Feb;293(2):235-42. doi: 10.1002/ar.21044. PMID: 20027645. This picture is if a beaked whale from the Victorias museum web page (just after an internet search, no affiliation): I can see it fit. Do I see some suture lines on the side of the third picture maybe? Thanks Ivaldir I’ll have to check out that paper. I knew the ones at te papa were really dense but thought this might have been due to mineralization. think I’ll have to take another look for the rest! It had fallen out a cliff and was sitting in washed down Siltstone. The breaks look clean so there could be more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 On 3/27/2024 at 2:53 AM, Ivaldir said: Interesting piece! Just my amateur idea: I think Doctor Mud is onto something. The beaked whale rostrum has some of the highest bone density known to animals, explaining the lack of porosity. Your post motivated me to explore this further. Thanks it was the case of - this is my preferred Id but I’m very tentative. Prepared for dissapointment. Reading the paper you suggested led me to this one: Rostral densification in beaked whales: Diverse processes for a similar pattern https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1631068311000601 And this figure: It’s looking pretty good to me! Especially those two canals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 I was at the hospital getting some other fossils scanned and slipped this one in 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted March 28 Author Share Posted March 28 Not clear in the above slices, but after some more adjustment I could see what look to be sutures inside the bone. Amazing series of fine canals branching off the main canals that run the length of the bone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivaldir Posted March 29 Share Posted March 29 Very nice! Makes for a nice story to the piece as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 (edited) On 3/30/2024 at 6:15 AM, Ivaldir said: Very nice! Makes for a nice story to the piece as well. Yes! I had another look at the site no more yet. False alarm - piece of wood sticking out the lose silt Im quite happy with the ID now. See how there are 4 canals in “C” in the above figure. Red is dense bone in the color image, white in the greyscale. Scale bar is 10cm Edited March 31 by Doctor Mud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivaldir Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 Love it, too bad about the wood hehe. Maybe you find the other pieces once, although the fracture does not look recent I think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted April 1 Author Share Posted April 1 12 hours ago, Ivaldir said: Love it, too bad about the wood hehe. Maybe you find the other pieces once, although the fracture does not look recent I think? Yes I looked at the fracture under the scope and it might be wishful thinking. I think I can see traces of matrix on the broken faces. it’s common to find just chunks of bone at this site, re-worked into submarine landslides. But I’ll still keep looking. Who knows what else will turn up. I’m hoping there will be a nice big shark tooth sitting there one day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted April 2 Author Share Posted April 2 On 3/27/2024 at 2:53 AM, Ivaldir said: Interesting piece! Just my amateur idea: I think Doctor Mud is onto something. The beaked whale rostrum has some of the highest bone density known to animals, explaining the lack of porosity. Cozzi B, Panin M, Butti C, Podestà M, Zotti A. Bone density distribution patterns in the rostrum of delphinids and beaked whales: evidence of family-specific evolutive traits. Anat Rec (Hoboken). 2010 Feb;293(2):235-42. doi: 10.1002/ar.21044. PMID: 20027645. This picture is if a beaked whale from the Victorias museum web page (just after an internet search, no affiliation): I can see it fit. Do I see some suture lines on the side of the third picture maybe? Interesting to read that these three pieces were found over the span of ~ 50 years! The first piece was found back in 1977, then 2 pieces subsequently by a different collector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 Got the official word from A fossil cetacean specialist here in NZ. “Interesting find! I am not aware of many – if any – in-situ ziphiid remains from NZ, so this is somewhat special. Any additional pieces would be really interesting.” I’ll donate it next time Te Papa is down here and keep looking, just in case there is more. There have been fossil skulls dredged from the deep ocean, but no date on them yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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