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Mammal incisor (?) Found at Big Brook, New Jersey - any chance it's pleistocene?


TRexEliot

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I just found this earlier today. It's so hard for me to judge age on mammal material in Big Brook because it stains so quickly...

 

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Sorry, can't help. Not familiar with mammal teeth at all.

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

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@Harry Pristis @Balance @Shellseeker @jpc

Tagged some people that can help, if they don't mind :)

 

-Jay

 

 

 

''...science is eminently perfectible, and that each theory has constantly to give way to a fresh one.''

-Journey to the Center of the Earth, Jules Verne

 

 

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I saw this earlier today.  Puzzling.  I have no idea.  

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Looks like an incisor but too what I can’t say. 
 

Jp

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1 hour ago, Jaybot said:

@Harry Pristis @Balance @Shellseeker @jpc

Tagged some people that can help, if they don't mind :)

 

Let's try some assumptions... It is mammal,  a premolar and really small... and Hollow !!!! Who has hollow teeth ?  Whales,  reptiles (Gators/Crocs),  Dolphin.... What else...?

When I first saw it,  I wondered about pinnipeds... 

Those are threads that OP could follow ,  eliminating each as a possibility...

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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@Shellseeker this was a land site during all the times mammal fossils were being deposited in this location. Also, I believe it's only hollow from the stream wearing the pulp out and leaving the harder enamel behind.

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1 hour ago, TRexEliot said:

@Shellseeker this was a land site during all the times mammal fossils were being deposited in this location. Also, I believe it's only hollow from the stream wearing the pulp out and leaving the harder enamel behind.

Then I believe you have a land mammal tooth.. 

Anything is possible,  but I have handled thousands and thousands of fossilized land mammal teeth in Florida and never found a single instance of water removing the pulp of an enamel tooth. All of mine have been hollow or not beyond Whale , alligator , and Crocodile. 

You might reach out to paleontologists at local universities and get their view of hollow land mammal teeth in your area.  @digit @Harry Pristis I am just trying to give you options to chase. Hollow Mammal teeth are super rare.

I think Digit or Harry will be happy to correct me if I am wrong

 

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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I’m not well versed in mammalian teeth, but I have an idea. Would it not be a tooth (or part of a tooth) that was barely out of the jaw bone, and therefore the root was not yet formed? This would explain that it is hollow, but also that the crown does not seem very worn. My 2 cents.

 

We don't have its size...

 

Coco

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----------------------
OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici

Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici
Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici
Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici
Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici
Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici
Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici

Un Greg...

Badges-IPFOTH.jpg.f4a8635cda47a3cc506743a8aabce700.jpg Badges-MOTM.jpg.461001e1a9db5dc29ca1c07a041a1a86.jpg

 

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Looks a bit like an unerupted (and unrooted) horse canine from a younger male horse. Could explain the lack of wear on the crown and the lack of root. I'm well beyond my bailiwick on this one as I see more horse cheek teeth (and incisors). I'm guessing Harry (or anyone who is a large animal vet in real life) would have a more definitive opinion. ;)

 

Cool find though! I love a good mystery--always an opportunity to learn something new. :)

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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@Coco sorry, I don't know the exact size, but I'd say just under a centimeter. I promise, my fingers are roughly normal human male size, if that helps 😂

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Posted (edited)

@Harry Pristis I don't think it can be any kind of marine material, since it isn't permineralized (a crack developed on the hollow base of the crown after it finished drying), and all the more modern material in big brook is terrestrial.

 

20240423_125909.thumb.jpg.6c06e6072df27dedc642ec22e5e6a150.jpg

Edited by TRexEliot
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48 minutes ago, TRexEliot said:

 I don't think it can be any kind of marine material, since it isn't permineralized (a crack developed on the hollow base of the crown after it finished drying), and all the more modern material in big brook is terrestrial.

Two faulty premises there:  Enamel and dentine don't readily mineralize, but they do crack when they dry.  Therefore, the tooth doesn't have to be modern.

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http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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@Harry Pristis good information, thank you for informing me! I will say that none of the fish or reptile teeth I've found in the brooks have been unstable, but that's not proof of anything. I'm planning to bring it to Dana Ehret with the NJ state museum tomorrow, so hopefully he will be able to see more in person.

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3 hours ago, TRexEliot said:

I promise, my fingers are roughly normal human male size, if that helps 😂

:default_rofl: :heartylaugh: :default_rofl:

I believe you, but what is the norm ? :blink:

 

You would be surprised to see the size of my hands which are wider than those of some men... :Wink1:

 

Back to our sheep (as they say in France), I cannot say more and I look forward to read more.

 

Coco

Edited by Coco

----------------------
OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici

Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici
Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici
Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici
Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici
Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici
Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici

Un Greg...

Badges-IPFOTH.jpg.f4a8635cda47a3cc506743a8aabce700.jpg Badges-MOTM.jpg.461001e1a9db5dc29ca1c07a041a1a86.jpg

 

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40 minutes ago, TRexEliot said:

I'm planning to bring it to Dana Ehret with the NJ state museum tomorrow, so hopefully he will be able to see more in person.

Please keep us updated!  I find your tooth very interesting

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-Jay

 

 

 

''...science is eminently perfectible, and that each theory has constantly to give way to a fresh one.''

-Journey to the Center of the Earth, Jules Verne

 

 

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Since Many find your tooth interesting.. I was searching for something else and found this...on a very well known auction site.

Quote

Unidentified 0.67" Canine Tooth Fossil - Florida Pleistocene - Mammalia indet.

s-l1600EbayTooth.png.d2319feb564ab92be0205674cc38d946.png

 

Maybe just cosmetically similar.. maybe nothing

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Posted (edited)

@Shellseeker Unfortunately, I think just cosmetically similar, but thank you for keeping an eye out! Today ended up not working for my meeting with Dana from the NJSM, but I will talk to him tomorrow, and hopefully he'll have some ideas.

Edited by TRexEliot
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Keep us in the loop if you learn anything. ;)

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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I left the tooth with Dana at the NJSM to show to Dave Parris when he has a chance, so hopefully Dave will have some ideas when he has a chance to take a look. I'll try to remember to update when I hear more!

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Not sure if Dave has gotten back to you yet, but could it be a broken camelid incisor?  Possibly unerupted?

 

Not my specimen, for reference:

 

s-l1200.thumb.jpg.a63fc8e927646196fb01b5e3f12dbe0c.jpg

-Jay

 

 

 

''...science is eminently perfectible, and that each theory has constantly to give way to a fresh one.''

-Journey to the Center of the Earth, Jules Verne

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Jaybot I have not heard back yet, but I did consider camelid incisor and thought the shape was a decent match. Only problem was it seemed very small, but I'm not very knowledgeable about pleistocene mammals, so I don't know if there are smaller species or if it could be a juvenile tooth.

Edited by TRexEliot
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