Afrovenator tooth

[M3gal0don_M4n]

Is this complete, composite, reconstructed or fake? I am thinking definitely not fake, but always better to have second opinion. It is from Tiouraren formation, Niger. The sooner I get a reply the better, as it goes in 3 days. If needed, I can give more photos.

Edited May 4 by M3gal0don_M4n

[Brevicollis]

Definetly real, formation is right, go for it if you want.

[rocket]

1 hour ago, M3gal0don_M4n said:

Is this complete, composite, reconstructed or fake? I am thinking definitely not fake, but always better to have second opinion. It is from Tiouraren formation, Niger. The sooner I get a reply the better, as it goes in 3 days. If needed, I can give more photos.

better to see some more pics, this side looks o.k.

[Kikokuryu]

The preservation feels more Elrhaz than Irhazer Group. Also, without detailed provenance, you couldn't really say if a tooth comes from the Tiouraren formation or Irhazer II Formation, hence Irhazer Group is more accurate for Middle Jurassic teeth from Niger.

[M3gal0don_M4n]

In that case, it isn’t Afrovenator? In that case, there are others I want to check.

[Kikokuryu]

24 minutes ago, M3gal0don_M4n said:

In that case, it isn’t Afrovenator?

If it's Elrhaz, which I'm suspecting it is. It's technically an indeterminate theropod, but most likely an undescribed carcharodontosaurid. Most dealers lump any non-spinosaurid/abelisaurid tooth into Eocarcharia, but for that species, the teeth described are stated to have a mesial carinae that extends to base. A lot of these theropod teeth from the Elrhaz do not, and likely belong to a larger species of carc. This megalosaurid-like trait is also found in the younger Kem Kem Group in Morocco, but those likely belong to basal carcs as well.

 

For Afrovenator, or technically cf. Afrovenator because you can't determine which of the two Middle Jurassic formations it comes from, the teeth are generally have a more "metallic" or shiny enamel in blues and cookies n' cream look to them. This is comparable to the teeth that are described from this deposit.

 

Once exposed to weathering, I think they end up like this which is what was associated with the Middle Jurassic deposits in Niger prior to the boatloads of teeth in recent times. Which is different to how weathered Elrhaz is more like a smooth polish. You can also see why these teeth end up looking like this due to how strong the matrix is keeping the tooth shards held together really stable.

Edited May 4 by Kikokuryu

[FB003]

Again, if locality found isn't coming with the tooth, ID can only be an assumption. Formation alone is not sufficient when multiple formations are near each other.

[Kikokuryu]

54 minutes ago, FB003 said:

Again, if locality found isn't coming with the tooth, ID can only be an assumption. Formation alone is not sufficient when multiple formations are near each other.

Unfortunately, due to the nature in which these teeth are collected and mixed together into bigger lots, this is a futile attempt. If precision and accuracy are a requirement for a collector, they probably have to cross off all teeth from Niger on their list.

 

I do know that this particular tooth, as is with the recent Niger material posted on the site are from a lot primarily filled with Suchomimus and a few teeth that look abelisaurid-ish, the preservation being the same for all teeth with seemingly no sign of Middle Jurassic filler. Edit: I will warn, there are croc teeth that I didn't see in that group picture of these teeth being sold as Suchomimus, some which appear to be Jurassic.

 

The information you typically get is either:

1. Niger

2. Agadez or Tenere Desert

3. Some vague locale; lost in translation

4. They made it up

 

If they give you a Middle Jurassic locale, but the lot it came from is a bunch of Suchomimus teeth, well...

 

You can likely eliminate the Echkar Formation since apparently this is from a dangerous area, and as far as I'm aware of, none of the material appears to be Cenomanian or comparable to the Kem Kem Group which shares similar/same fauna. So no Onchopristis as far as I'm aware of.

 

So it's between the Elrhaz Formation, Tiourarén Formation, and the Irhazer II Formation. The latter two are very closely aged Middle Jurassic deposits which form the Irhazer Group.

 

You can immediately separate Suchomimus and Nigersaurus as Elrhaz Formation, with some caveats on the latter due to mistaken identity with pterosaurs. The basal sauropod teeth like the spoon or heart shaped ones can be thrown into the Irhazer Group.

 

So from there, you kind of just have to compare preservation with Suchomimus, and the Tiourarén paper for filtering out Jurassics.

 

Niger material will always be a big guessing game, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Edited May 4 by Kikokuryu

[FB003]

55 minutes ago, Kikokuryu said:

Unfortunately, due to the nature in which these teeth are collected and mixed together into bigger lots, this is a futile attempt. If precision and accuracy are a requirement for a collector, they probably have to cross off all teeth from Niger on their list.

 

I do know that this particular tooth, as is with the recent Niger material posted on the site are from a lot primarily filled with Suchomimus and a few teeth that look abelisaurid-ish, the preservation being the same for all teeth with seemingly no sign of Middle Jurassic filler. Edit: I will warn, there are croc teeth that I didn't see in that group picture of these teeth being sold as Suchomimus, some which appear to be Jurassic.

 

The information you typically get is either:

1. Niger

2. Agadez or Tenere Desert

3. Some vague locale; lost in translation

4. They made it up

 

If they give you a Middle Jurassic locale, but the lot it came from is a bunch of Suchomimus teeth, well...

 

You can likely eliminate the Echkar Formation since apparently this is from a dangerous area, and as far as I'm aware of, none of the material appears to be Cenomanian or comparable to the Kem Kem Group which shares similar/same fauna. So no Onchopristis as far as I'm aware of.

 

So it's between the Elrhaz Formation, Tiourarén Formation, and the Irhazer II Formation. The latter two are very closely aged Middle Jurassic deposits which form the Irhazer Group.

 

You can immediately separate Suchomimus and Nigersaurus as Elrhaz Formation, with some caveats on the latter due to mistaken identity with pterosaurs. The basal sauropod teeth like the spoon or heart shaped ones can be thrown into the Irhazer Group.

 

So from there, you kind of just have to compare preservation with Suchomimus, and the Tiourarén paper for filtering out Jurassics.

 

Niger material will always be a big guessing game, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

To each their own. I can't say I agree with everything here (specifically, the acknowledgment of a mixed lot but assuming formation based on preservation which can vary) but It sounds like you are familiar with the background on this particular tooth which is context not originally provided so fair points.

Edited May 4 by FB003

[M3gal0don_M4n]

So in that case, would this be more likely to be Afrovenator? It is from the same seller and states it is also from the Tiouraren formation.

[M3gal0don_M4n]

Hello. Is the above tooth an Afrovenator?

[Kikokuryu]

9 hours ago, M3gal0don_M4n said:

Hello. Is the above tooth an Afrovenator?

Probably not. It's from the same lot filled with Suchomimus teeth like the others you've shown, and may possibly be Elrhaz Formation, thus, possibly an indeterminate carcharodontosaurid that is likely not Eocarcharia, nor Afrovenator.

 

But as mentioned by others, if you wanted to be conservative in the identification, it's an indeterminate theropod from Niger that could go either Cretaceous or Jurassic. Because that lot contained Suchomimus and maybe Kryptops, these generic theropod teeth can go either way, Cretaceous Elrhaz or Jurassic Irhazer filler.

 

There's also no way you can say any Jurassic tooth is from the Tiourarén Formation without detailed provenance and stratigraphical data. At best, they are Irhazer Group (Tiourarén + Irhazer II).

[M3gal0don_M4n]

Thanks! I decided not to buy it. Instead I found well preserved Megalodon teeth going in 3 days.

[M3gal0don_M4n]

The Megalodon tooth I got: