Jaw with a tooth, times 2

[Shellseeker]

Interesting day hunting the Peace River with friend Steve. Mostly small teeth early (12-15 per screen). Only odd finds for me were a nice Glyptodon osteoderm, a pretty Tiger and a 32 mm garfish scale.

 

The Tiger:

 

 

That maybe for 90 minutes and then I stopped finding anything for 90 minutes...  Steve started slowly and then he picked up... We reversed roles and one of his finds was a piece of jaw with one 15 mm tooth...

 

 

Steve asked me to ID.. I made an informed guess,  and Steve laughed at my guess. 

Let's see what others say. I will give a hint.  Pay attention to the Alveoli not the tooth. 

We both continued hunting.  I found another garfish scale and Steve also found 2... same size same everything. I found a Mako.. almost perfect blade on almost invisible root.. Some how it is difficult to find Makos and GWs with great roots.. at least for me. 

And then knowing that Steve had the best find of the day,  and being competitive by nature, I produce a jaw with one tooth...

I know !   

I KNOW... it is not fossilized but Initially I thought Alligator Gar but now I am not so sure...  

 

 

Comments and suggestions always welcome..  Jack

[Jaybot]

19 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Let's see what others say

You know I'm pretty inexperienced with IDing stuff... but I'll throw my hat in the ring.

 

Upon noticing the roots of the tooth, my gut feeling was that it could be a carnivore.  Could it be some kind of canid?

I'll hesitantly put my guess on coyote or some other canid molar.  Hesitantly because:  

44 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Steve laughed at my guess. 

I don't know Steve, but I wouldn't be laughing at coyote or some other wolf.

 

I've probably made myself look silly with this post, but hey I'm here to learn

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Jaybot said:

Upon noticing the roots of the tooth, my gut feeling was that it could be a carnivore.  Could it be some kind of canid?

I'll hesitantly put my guess on coyote or some other canid molar.

On the contrary,  I like where you are heading.

The Alveoli on Steve's jaw has room for a single rooted and it is too small for a canine.  Here is the canid dentition

A single hole alveoli can only match to the 1st premolar (p1 and p2) or last molar (m2 and m3).  Because of the shape of the jaw, it must be the m3.  The photo here is from a dog,  specifically a Lab, one of my favorite dogs.  I learned about the m3 while trying to compare jaws from Canis edwardii and Canis latrans (Coyote) years ago. So. Yes it is a carnivore, but I guessed a different predator. 

Based on the fact that I identified this very similar fossil three months ago. Note that it has a broken root in the m3 alveoli. @Harry Pristis certainly can identify this find and likely knows a huge amount about which mammals can have a single alveoli m3.

 

[Al Dente]

7 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

it is not fossilized but Initially I thought Alligator Gar but now I am not so sure...  

 

It is a premaxilla. Could be some type of snapper, jack, sea bass or snook.

[digit]

9 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

I found a Mako.. almost perfect blade on almost invisible root.. Some how it is difficult to find Makos and GWs with great roots.. at least for me. 

GW teeth are often found with nicely intact blades and minimal root material. I was recently talking with Gavin Naylor at the Florida Program for Shark Research at the FLMNH about this. Our current theory on this one is that GW sharks might replace their teeth more frequently than other sharks and invest less in mineralizing the roots of their teeth making them less likely to survive intact as fossils. Remember that the Isurus hastalis that we used to call a "Mako" is now thought to be the (unserrated) ancestor to the GW. For those of us who've been using the old terminology, remembering to call this the "extinct white shark", Carcharodon hastalis, is still somewhat of a challenge.

 

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/carcharodon-hastalis/

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

P.S.: Nice Galeocerdo mayumbensis!

 

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, digit said:

GW teeth are often found with nicely intact blades and minimal root material. I was recently talking with Gavin Naylor at the Florida Program for Shark Research at the FLMNH about this. Our current theory on this one is that GW sharks might replace their teeth more frequently than other sharks and invest less in mineralizing the roots of their teeth making them less likely to survive intact as fossils. Remember that the Isurus hastalis that we used to call a "Mako" is now thought to be the (unserrated) ancestor to the GW. For those of us who've been using the old terminology, remembering to call this the "extinct white shark", Carcharodon hastalis, is still somewhat of a challenge.

 

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/carcharodon-hastalis/

Cheers. -Ken

 

P.S.: Nice Galeocerdo mayumbensis!

 

Thank you , Ken .  Very informative..  Now that Richard has retired, I needed to consider my scientific contacts for describing fossils, especially fauna from Florida. You qualify... in spades.  Jack

[Shellseeker]

11 hours ago, Al Dente said:

 

It is a premaxilla. Could be some type of snapper, jack, sea bass or snook.

Thanks ... opens my eyes (and possibilities)...

I had found a fossilized jaw and separately a single tooth in the same location, but not this location 

of what was identified as Alligator Gar, realized that this new find was not Alligator gar but thought it might be the modern version Longnose Gar... Not possible . Alveoli are too small.

 

This location is at least 60 miles from Salt water,  but the local fishermen have raved about the occasional juvenile Snook they catch in the Peace River.. I will try to match one of your suggestions with actual modern jaws... 

[Shellseeker]

9 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Based on the fact that I identified this very similar fossil three months ago. Note that it has a broken root in the m3 alveoli. @Harry Pristis certainly can identify this find and likely knows a huge amount about which mammals can have a single alveoli m3.

@Jaybot

The only reason I could make an educated guess is that Harry helped to Id the fauna back in February...

Now you'll remember the carnivore "m3" the next time you see a small jaw that has one. I certainly could be wrong, but it is my best possibility until someone comes with new information. What a great , great photo from Harry... he has created a legacy in his Gallery images that keep producing value for TFF members.

[Done Drillin]

For the fish jaw-  bowfin might fit although their teeth tend to be pretty uniform in size and it appears from the alveolus that the teeth are of different sizes. Your jaw also has many tiny alveoli on the lingual aspect that are for the “gripper” teeth which bowfin possess. Another possibility could be snapper as they do have the ability to inhabit fresh water environments. No way for it to be snook though as they do not have teeth. Here is the same jaw piece from a modern day mutton snapper and you can see the tiny “gripper “ teeth I alluded to before.

Edited May 9 by Done Drillin

[Fin Lover]

3 hours ago, digit said:

GW teeth are often found with nicely intact blades and minimal root material. I was recently talking with Gavin Naylor at the Florida Program for Shark Research at the FLMNH about this. Our current theory on this one is that GW sharks might replace their teeth more frequently than other sharks and invest less in mineralizing the roots of their teeth making them less likely to survive intact as fossils.

Thanks, @digit.  @Shellseeker I have the same issue with both GWs and hastalis in Summerville.

Edited May 9 by Fin Lover

[Jaybot]

@Shellseeker I was also considering a canid's m2-m3.  Thanks for the update.  So, is it a domesticated dog?  I probably read your post wrong, but I don't see what your guess is

 

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, Jaybot said:

@Shellseeker I was also considering a canid's m2-m3.  Thanks for the update.  So, is it a domesticated dog?  I probably read your post wrong, but I don't see what your guess is

 

River otter.. Lower m2 carnassial with an Alveoli for the location of the m3.  I also think that the 15 mm length of the m3 is consistent with otter. River otter are pretty rare fossil finds in Florida... 

Below is a Lontra canadensis mandible,

 

Here is another view from PrehistoricFlorida, 

[Shellseeker]

5 hours ago, Done Drillin said:

For the fish jaw-  bowfin might fit although their teeth tend to be pretty uniform in size and it appears from the alveolus that the teeth are of different sizes. Your jaw also has many tiny alveoli on the lingual aspect that are for the “gripper” teeth which bowfin possess. Another possibility could be snapper as they do have the ability to inhabit fresh water environments. No way for it to be snook though as they do not have teeth. Here is the same jaw piece from a modern day mutton snapper and you can see the tiny “gripper “ teeth I alluded to before.

Thanks for the insights and you do talk with some experience and Authority.... I am always amazed finding Salt water fish 60 plus miles from Salt Water.... Mutton snapper looks to be an excellent possibility..  Jack

[Jaybot]

Ah ok, that makes sense Jack.  I should have put two and two together when you attached that otter jaw pic earlier...

 

If I was Steve... I wouldn't be laughing, I'd be too excited to contain myself

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Jaybot said:

Ah ok, that makes sense Jack.  I should have put two and two together when you attached that otter jaw pic earlier...

 

If I was Steve... I wouldn't be laughing, I'd be too excited to contain myself

A lot of these initial IDs are Tentative and I hope that someone will come back and argue for another possibility or at least discuss why my thinking was flawed.  I sensed it was a fossil, not modern. Once I saw the small circular alveoli, I knew that the tooth had to be an m2 carnassial and realized that at 15 mm, the tooth was small for either wolf or even coyote. Raccoon was/is a possibility..  

[Shellseeker]

Before I close on a Hunting trip.. I usually created photos to recall the memory and possibly post on TFF for some future Identifications..