johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 (edited) So I found this bone piece the other day on a river gravel bank here in SE Texas. I think it might be a turtle carapace but it's hollowed out inside by the foramina? I was really wondering about the holes on the outside and whether that is from river wear exposing them or if it might be from a bite and made by teeth. There is also an indention not punctured around the center of it. Could be from anything, but it I do wonder. I don't see marks underneath so I might really be reaching which is OK to dream every now and then. I also thought maybe a jaw piece based on the foramina sizes. Thanks for your thoughts on... if you agree it is turtle and if you think those might have been made by teeth or simply made from wear. Edited May 30 by johnnyvaldez7.jv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 I personally don't think those are bite marks, but they might be blood vessel holes. Let's wait though, and see what the experts think 1 1 -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 (edited) @Jaybot yeah sorry that's what I meant when I wondered if river wear wore thru and exposed those interior vessel holes. Thanks. Interior holes that size make me think if it were from a turtle it's a rather large one. Edited May 30 by johnnyvaldez7.jv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 . I think the holes are bivalve borings. The texture doesn't look like turtle to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 @Rockwood Wow, that's really interesting and after looking at images online I think that is entirely possible. Learned something knew. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilus Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 1 hour ago, Rockwood said: . I think the holes are bivalve borings. The texture doesn't look like turtle to me. I could be wrong, but aren't boring bivalves marine? If this bone is pleistocene, and was found in SE Texas it is extremely unlikely that it was bored by a marine bivalve as SE Texas was only covered by salt water only rarely and just immediately near the coast during the pleistocene. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilus Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 Also, when you zoom the first photo, the bone looks like it has grown around holes as it would for normal bone foramen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 @fossilus do you think river wear ground it down to expose those foramen in that spot? Doesn't seem to look like wear at all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 (edited) So you don't think these could have been bite marks that maybe eventually wore thru? Total speculation. The one to the right seems odd and in a thicker spot. The angle of the smaller one to the left goes forward in this photo. I should probably look at more bite evidence photos to compare but I have found various carnivore material so they had to have chewed on something. One day. Edited May 30 by johnnyvaldez7.jv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilus Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 It can be quite hard to ID bite marks on worn bone. To be honest most of the holes I have seen on bones were natural foramen, but I do have a few that I'm confident are truly teeth marks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 I agree with fossilus that the holes appear to be foramen. I also agree that the texture doesn't look consistent with turtle. I think this is a jaw segment with visible foramen. Not sure what from. Maybe alligator? I think I have an alligator piece with similar surface texture wear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 On an alligator, the other possibility to consider may be a fragment from a place toward the back of the skull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 1 hour ago, fossilus said: I could be wrong, but aren't boring bivalves marine? If this bone is pleistocene, and was found in SE Texas it is extremely unlikely that it was bored by a marine bivalve as SE Texas was only covered by salt water only rarely and just immediately near the coast during the pleistocene. I'm just saying that it's what the last picture looks like to me. Everything else is just an if to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 I know I'm flipping the same side around it's just to see it a different way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted May 31 Author Share Posted May 31 @Brandy Cole Thank you for that suggestion. Here are some alligator head views. This is a clone of one found online. I couldn't find anything similar from these views tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 In my locality (which has extremely similar fossils and hunting conditions as @johnnyvaldez7.jv), some river worn fragments can have a texture similar to this specimen. Unfortunately, I am away, so no pics to show right now. -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 12 hours ago, johnnyvaldez7.jv said: I couldn't find anything similar from these views tho. It may well be something else. Pieces in this area below are what I was thinking of when I said alligator. Especially because the bigger side of your piece seems to have several cavities that I tend to associate with skull material. To me, it best resembles one of the bones in the area where the jaws meet and where the jaws connect to the skull. I wasn't sure of the exact name for those bones, so I wasn't clear enough in my previous message. Your piece is much thinner than these and may not be alligator at all. It just seemed that the texture is similar and skull areas typically have a lot of foramen. Alligator is the only thing I could think of that might have a bone that curved and slim in the skull with those cavities on the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivaldir Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 The holes inside look like the air-containing cells present in most mammal skulls. These are big however, it would point to a large animal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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