Wrangellian Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) I posted some of these in the 'Collections' section, but I still don't know for sure if they are sponges. The preservation is not what I would want, but I can't expect much from our local shale, it's not exactly Burgess Shale and the sponge may have been delicate in life. The fine crosshatched pattern reminds me of a Hexactinellid (Glass) sponge. One guy I showed it to was skeptical and thought it was just a plant, but I want a 2nd opinion. I only showed him specimen #2 below, and I failed to point out to him that all the plant material from this site (which is plentiful) contains carbon (coal), visible even as a black film in a leaf, for example, while these have none (and these aren't weathered either - I broke them fresh out of the rock myself.) Does this structure jump out screaming 'sponge' to anyone? I realize I might get better answers when I start taking better pics, but this is what I've got now! Edited November 13, 2010 by Wrangellian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) One more for now.. I'll see if I can take more pics to add later. Edited November 13, 2010 by Wrangellian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordovician_Odyssey Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 it does actually, im not sure what species but im pretty sure its sponge. -Shamus The Ordovician enthusiast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 looks like fossil burlap cool fossil, could it be a bryzoan or coral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 looks like fossil burlap cool fossil, could it be a bryzoan or coral? It looks like fossil cheesecloth to me! I thought of bryozoan, and I can't rule that out, but I always thought bryozoans looked more like interlocking tubes whereas this stuff looks like fine mesh as in sponge spicules. No idea really. I doubt it's coral for similar reasons.. It looks like a flimsy material that tended to get twisted and squashed easily during preservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordovician_Odyssey Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 this peice resembles yours, and its bryozoan http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Extension/fossils/jpegs/Septopora.jpg -Shamus The Ordovician enthusiast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 this peice resembles yours, and its bryozoan http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Extension/fossils/jpegs/Septopora.jpg Interesting.. it does resemble.. what age is that one? Mine is U. Cretaceous, but bryozoans are still around today so that's not outside the realm of possibility is it? Incidentally I read that the Cretaceous was the most diverse time for sponges, so I would think they should be everywhere, it just depends on the preservation. (I wonder which is more delicate, the sponge or the bryo. I know the Glass sponges have silica spicules, while the other types are calcareous or spongin or whatever, so I would think the glass ones would be more likely to preserve. I don't know what bryos are made of..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordovician_Odyssey Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 im sorry i dont know what age, i got the picture off of google -Shamus The Ordovician enthusiast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossisle Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Wrangee Nice finds, yes they resemble sponge or fenestrate bryozoans!! I haven't seen any from our Cretaceous sites before!! Cephalopods rule!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampa dino Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Did someone say Sponge:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted November 15, 2010 Author Share Posted November 15, 2010 Wrangee Nice finds, yes they resemble sponge or fenestrate bryozoans!! I haven't seen any from our Cretaceous sites before!! I know, I don't think there have been any sponges or bryos yet found in our Cretaceous.. I'm hoping if I get this confirmed I'll have discovered something new! -going to try to get some more of the VicPS guys to look at them at the meeting this Wed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted November 17, 2010 Author Share Posted November 17, 2010 More sponge/bryo? specimens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossisle Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Wrangellian , you should send some photos to Dr Paul Taylor at the Natural History Museum , London. He will be able to tell you if this is a fossil bryozoan Cephalopods rule!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongefan Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Hi wrangellian, it looks to me like a meshwork of skeletal needles from a hexactinellid sponge. This type of sponges sometimes does have this regular nearly square meshwork consisting of siliceous spicules. Compare your find to Diagonella spec. or Protospongia spec., both from middle and upper cambrium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I vote for sponge. The bryozoans are certainly close, but, to me, it seems to show much more sponginess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 Thanks guys, that's what I was thinking. I did hear back from Dr Paul Taylor the Bryozoan expert and he doesnt think they are Bryozoans, apparently there aren't Bryos like this in the Cretaceous. But the only reference I can find do sponges with this pattern are Paleozoic too, like the ones you mentioned! Of course my sources are limited. Can anybody show me pics of Cretaceous sponges with this netlike pattern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Quadratic mesh patterns in recent and fossil sponges are quite prolific. A quick perusal of the sponge atlas volume of the treatise indicates numerous types from the Paleozoic forward. I've attached a image of two Cretaceous quadrate examples that also preserve their coloration. From The Treatise on Invertebrate Paleontology Part E - Porifera Revised Vol.2 quadrule (n). Square mesh with sides formed by tangential rays of four hexactines, pentactines, or stauractines, whose centers are located at the corners, or produced by subdivision of such a square by smaller spicules within it (Hex). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xonenine Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 I was leaning towards sponge, but went back to look at some bryos - This Ptilopora striata interested me... link as well http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~kwilson/Devonian/DevSites/Tichenor%20LS/Tich_bryos.htm "Your serpent of Egypt is bred now of your mud by the operation of your sun; so is your crocodile." Lepidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted December 7, 2010 Author Share Posted December 7, 2010 I see that, but I figure if Dr Paul Taylor says fairly confidently that it's not a bryozoan then I'll take his word for it. The thing that has me wondering with both the bryos and sponges I've seen so far is that they all seem to have thickness to them, as if they were made up of interlocked tubes, while mine looks thin like it was made of cheesecloth. I don't know if that's just a difference in the preservation, but I'd still like to see examples more similar to mine to be confident. In any case I don't think it's a plant like one of our local experts suggested on the basis of one specimen, so I'm still looking for answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 (edited) I was leaning towards sponge, but went back to look at some bryos - This Ptilopora striata interested me... Coincidental sponge mimicry is a worthy topic - TFF is a clearinghouse for "What is it - Sponge Coral Bryo?" threads. The debate is always a interesting one. Here is Receptaculites - the quintessential sponge mimic. So good in fact that it escaped proper classification for many years. Although it was removed from Porifera and placed as a algal form the treatise nonetheless still pays tribute with a special category of 'Genera Incorrectly Assigned to Porifera But Belonging To Other Taxa'. Among 39 disallowed taxa 12 were receptaculitids outnumbering all others. Bryozoans are well represented with 6 for a 2nd place ranking among exiled sponge imposters. Edited December 7, 2010 by piranha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Wrangellian, For a definitive opinion on the sponge hypothesis, you should contact Dr. J. Keith Rigby, the preeminent authority on all things spongy. He is an emeritus faculty member at the Brigham Young Dept of Geology, and you can find a link to his email at the bottom of this page. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 (edited) I see that, but I figure if Dr Paul Taylor says fairly confidently that it's not a bryozoan then I'll take his word for it. The thing that has me wondering with both the bryos and sponges I've seen so far is that they all seem to have thickness to them, as if they were made up of interlocked tubes, while mine looks thin like it was made of cheesecloth. I don't know if that's just a difference in the preservation, but I'd still like to see examples more similar to mine to be confident. In any case I don't think it's a plant like one of our local experts suggested on the basis of one specimen, so I'm still looking for answers. The Cambrian sponges that come to mind are generally preserved flat like a cheesecloth. Isn't this more or less just to be expected given the age and typical characteristics of preservation? I don't mean to oversimplify the premise other than to say many Cambrian faunas yield flat fossils. I'll post photos here of various flattened Paleozoic - Cenozoic sponges for you to evaluate in comparison with your specimens. Edited December 7, 2010 by piranha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 (edited) The following images represent a variety of hexactinellid sponge fossils from the Ediacaran to the Pliocene-Holocene boundary. The focus was to showcase the forms that best exhibit a net-like spicular mesh preserved as flat impression fossils. One example was discovered from Class Demospongea and happily included with the others. It's been a great exercise to compile and research this fascinating group of sponges. Enjoy! Palaeophragmodictya - Ediacaran Wapkia - Cambrian Leptomitus - Cambrian Leptomitella - Cambrian Edited December 7, 2010 by piranha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Palaeosaccus - Cambrian Quadrolaminiella - Cambrian Asthenospongia - Ordovician Gabelia - Silurian-Devonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Mattaspongia - Devonian Stereodictyum - Carboniferous-Permian Ammonella - Jurassic Hormathospongia - Cretaceous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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