My Lizard Amber Collection

[colman86]

hey guys, for those that didn't see my introduction post here's the story

I was browsing through the forums and thought it would be the perfect place to learn from and get advice. i am from toronto and i'm not a collector or very educated on fossils but I was wondering if you guys could help me out or guide me in the right direction with some questions. Recently my grand father passed away and left my family his fossil collection. He was a jeweler by occupation and often visited Dominican rep. in search of amber fossils throughout his life. I have inherited a large collection now of amber fossils with many different insects and lizards. They’ve all been tested for authenticity at 2 different museums in the pass, but the numbering order has been mixed up to identify which paper belongs to which stone. Anyways I am interested in selling them in the future and would like to know the procedures involved. Is there some kind of researching facility or collectors I could contact? I have a couple of pictures I took with a standard digital camera, and i'm no photographer...

i spoke to people from the r.o.m (royal ontario museum) to get them authenticated again, but they apparently have no one qualified to do so :S ..... so i'm still trying to find someone who can.

anyways, heres some pics as many of you wanted to see........ enjoy, and thanks for all the recent advice

[Fossilcollector]

Some of your specimens are likely authentic but there are some pieces that look a little too perfect.

Usually lizards in amber are skeletonized or badly deteriorated within the amber, here are some examples:

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6036&Lot_No=53221

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6036&Lot_No=53220

In copal, which some of your specimens may be, they look a little better:

http://www.fossilmall.com/Stonerelic/amber/lizard%20in%20amber/lizard.htm

I would recommend getting them authenticated first and then approaching dealers who are willing to purchase them.

Take care,

YvW

[THobern]

Vertebrate fossils preserved in amber are usually pretty valuable, so try to get them appraised by several independent parties.

[PaleoPastels]

Some of your specimens are likely authentic but there are some pieces that look a little too perfect.

Usually lizards in amber are skeletonized or badly deteriorated within the amber, here are some examples:

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6036&Lot_No=53221

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6036&Lot_No=53220

In copal, which some of your specimens may be, they look a little better:

http://www.fossilmall.com/Stonerelic/amber/lizard%20in%20amber/lizard.htm

I would recommend getting them authenticated first and then approaching dealers who are willing to purchase them.

Take care,

YvW

I agree :/ I have met a lot of polished amber that are fakes containing specimen that are in absolute perfect condition and seem as veomega said "too perfect" to be completely natural. I usually see amber lizards darker in color as well. If you feel unsure about some of your pieces, you can have them evaluated and looked at by a local professional. Still there are so many nice pieces in your collection that are extremely unique! Amber is a VERY neat kind of fossil

[jpc]

Fake amber is made of plastic. Real amber is made of tree sap. There is a very simple test you can do and all it takes is the specimen and a match. (cabdl offers more control). Yes, try to burn them. If they are real, they will smell nice... piney usually. If they are fake they will smell not nice, like burning plastic. Have some water on hand because tree sap burns very well. As is obvious from the many pieces of amber we have all seen (maybe), it also polishes nicely, so any corner you burn can be repolished, so even if you don't go ahead and repolish them youreslf, you have not ruined the specimen.

I have not done this myself, so try it on a non-lizard piece first.

There is one situation where I may be wrong... if the fakers have figured out how to make fakes out of tree sap. Anyone out there know if they have?

[piranha]

Fake amber is made of plastic. Real amber is made of tree sap. There is a very simple test you can do and all it takes is the specimen and a match. (cabdl offers more control). Yes, try to burn them. If they are real, they will smell nice... piney usually. If they are fake they will smell not nice, like burning plastic. Have some water on hand because tree sap burns very well. As is obvious from the many pieces of amber we have all seen (maybe), it also polishes nicely, so any corner you burn can be repolished, so even if you don't go ahead and repolish them youreslf, you have not ruined the specimen.

I have not done this myself, so try it on a non-lizard piece first.

There is one situation where I may be wrong... if the fakers have figured out how to make fakes out of tree sap. Anyone out there know if they have?

good suggestion although the ole' heated needle trick will be more precise and less damaging method

[Fossilcollector]

PS: I should mention that some fakers actually put the lizard into real amber or copal via carving out a cavity and refilling with reconstituted amber or epoxy. So the needle test may not always work.

[Mexx]

PS: I should mention that some fakers actually put the lizard into real amber or copal via carving out a cavity and refilling with reconstituted amber or epoxy. So the needle test may not always work.

I guess then also the burning trick does not work. Otherwise you would have to burn until you smell the lizard...

[Terry Dactyll]

Colman86.... It looks like you have chosen some great specimens there putting your collection together, so well done for that...I wouldnt advocate setting fire to them... maybe touch them with a red hot pin in a place that doesnt matter or would damage the fossil and smell the vapour.... although as pointed out, this may not be worth doing.... I do hope you havent been 'stung'...

Faking fossils.... I dont think it just applies to amber either as theres a lot of fantastic looking trilobites sat in peoples collections that would smell of plastic or resin too if flashed with flame....

[bhtkevin]

If those are authentic I've seen lizards in amber sell for $50,000+

I will send you a couple of links

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

I am no amber expert, but isn't there a test using mineral oil or something? Seems to me I remember reading tht real amber will still look clear under mineral oil and fake stuff looks cloudy. Might not be mineral oil, but I know there is something out there that is less destructive then the burn/pin test.

[colman86]

i've done my own little test someone told me to do, cup of water with a certain salt mixture....they all passed, but i don't know how trusted this method is

I am no amber expert, but isn't there a test using mineral oil or something? Seems to me I remember reading tht real amber will still look clear under mineral oil and fake stuff looks cloudy. Might not be mineral oil, but I know there is something out there that is less destructive then the burn/pin test.

[Auspex]

Modern inclusions are being placed in genuine amber, so authenticating the amber is only part of the process. Identifying the lizards as extinct species would be needed to clinch their authenticity.

[fossil lover 101]

Fake or not, your ambers look great!

[jpc]

Dang those fakers and their amber stuffing techniques. Even though the match idea was my post, I would ammend it to using a hot needle. Yes, then you still have to figure out if you have modern lizards in there or not. does the ROM have a modern herpetologist who can help ID those reptiles? Maybe hunt them down instead of the non-existent amber expert.

Edited November 19, 2010 by jpc

[Carl]

Copal can be melted and used to encase modern inclusions, but the hardest fakes to detect use real amber which is broken open to provide access to the inside. Then a chamber is carved out to receive the modern inclusion and the piece put back together and sealed with glue or even heated resin. Obviously, any external test on specimens of this sort will give a positive amber reading.

Additionally, amber is tree resin rather than sap.

Fake amber is made of plastic. Real amber is made of tree sap. There is a very simple test you can do and all it takes is the specimen and a match. (cabdl offers more control). Yes, try to burn them. If they are real, they will smell nice... piney usually. If they are fake they will smell not nice, like burning plastic. Have some water on hand because tree sap burns very well. As is obvious from the many pieces of amber we have all seen (maybe), it also polishes nicely, so any corner you burn can be repolished, so even if you don't go ahead and repolish them youreslf, you have not ruined the specimen.

I have not done this myself, so try it on a non-lizard piece first.

There is one situation where I may be wrong... if the fakers have figured out how to make fakes out of tree sap. Anyone out there know if they have?

Edited November 21, 2010 by Carl

[Carl]

Whoops... Didn't realize others had mentioned the amber cavity fakes... Note to self: read whole thread first.

But don't miss the sap/resin clarification.

Copal can be melted and used to encase modern inclusions, but the hardest fakes to detect use real amber which is broken open to provide access to the inside. Then a chamber is carved out to receive the modern inclusion and the piece put back together and sealed with glue or even heated resin. Obviously, any external test on specimens of this sort will give a positive amber reading.

Additionally, amber is tree resin rather than sap.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Carl

[jpc]

carl-

since you mentioned it... what is the dif b/w sap and resin?

Inquiring minds want to know.

jpc

Edited November 22, 2010 by jpc