What's The Deal With The Burgess Shale?

[Wrangellian]

You may be thinking of the Republic Site down in Washington State. You are allowed to collect at that site but anything new or rare is retained by the Stone Rose Interpretive Center.

Dan

P.S. There's no harm in posting a few things off topic. Besides it's nice to compare what's happening at these other sites. Maybe we can apply some of their solutions to the Burgess Shale. Just a thought.

Yes, that's my dearest wish.

That pdf you sent me has the following:

"The fossil beds at Driftwood Creek (Driftwood Canyon Provincial Park) were on privately owned land until the owner donated them to the Province for the purpose of establishing a paleontological park, where members of the public could collect and learn about fossils. Management and restrictions on collecting have changed during the years since. Currently, collecting by the public is discouraged."

That makes sense of both my recollection and your info.

Seems you can't even establish a park for the purpose of public fossil collecting, if it comes under Prov or Fed control, the rules inevitably revert to "no collecting"! If they would allow surface collecting but restrict digging to the professionals, that would seem like a good compromise, and if the prof's accumulate some non-scientifically-valuable specimens they could be distributed to schools or sold to tourists to fund the effort. Anything to keep the loose fossils from weathering to nothing out there in the elements. -Just throwing some ideas out there.

Nice Burgess pics, btw. That Leanchoilia looks like it narrowly escaped being eaten until they were both buried!

Edited November 30, 2010 by Wrangellian

[piranha]

Great fossils Dan! Thanks for posting them for us. The Olenoides and Ogygopsis are really sweet.

Of course any Ogygopsis with cheeks is a treat. Your great photos are as close as most of us will ever get to being there!

Many years ago I had the chance to get a look at a collection of soft bodied marvels - the ones that are fossilized in thin film preservation on the shale. Depending on how the light glints or refracts off the fossil replete with unbelievable details. Suffice it to say this group of fossils rivaled any in the Briggs book for sure. I most remember the amazing Opabinia and its beautiful eyes and a perfectly articulated ventral Odontogriphus that you could differentiate the mouth parts (tentacles?) without the aide of a loupe. There were a half dozen large flats representing all (YES: ALL - or so I was told) of the taxa preserved as thin films from the site. That is one evening I'll never forget as long as I live. I was very fortunate to spend an hour or so examining them in close detail. And all the while I had to continually remind myself to keep breathing! I can't reveal the details of who, where or when to protect the obvious expectation of privacy. Naturally photos were not allowed so today they live only in my memories.

An amazing encounter with the fossil magnificence and splendor of The Burgess Shale.

[Wrangellian]

Great fossils Dan! Thanks for posting them for us. The Olenoides and Ogygopsis are really sweet.

Of course any Ogygopsis with cheeks is a treat. Your great photos are as close as most of us will ever get to being there!

Many years ago I had the chance to get a look at a collection of soft bodied marvels - the ones that are fossilized in thin film preservation on the shale. Depending on how the light glints or refracts off the fossil replete with unbelievable details. Suffice it to say this group of fossils rivaled any in the Briggs book for sure. I most remember the amazing Opabinia and its beautiful eyes and a perfectly articulated ventral Odontogriphus that you could differentiate the mouth parts (tentacles?) without the aide of a loupe. There were a half dozen large flats representing all (YES: ALL - or so I was told) of the taxa preserved as thin films from the site. That is one evening I'll never forget as long as I live. I was very fortunate to spend an hour or so examining them in close detail. And all the while I had to continually remind myself to keep breathing! I can't reveal the details of who, where or when to protect the obvious expectation of privacy. Naturally photos were not allowed so today they live only in my memories.

An amazing encounter with the fossil magnificence and splendor of The Burgess Shale.

Somebody has a large private collection of that material???

[piranha]

There are folks with legitimate old collections and even older money to afford them. I shared my fortuitous encounter only to convey the experience of those moments as I recall them. I'll never own a personal jet or live in a private skyscraper so it's unfathomable for me to imagine that kind of wealth. This collection has all of the bona fides you could imagine and has it in spades. Words are truly inadequate in this instance.

Above all my intent here is to share the memories of how elegant and majestic those creatures were to behold in my hands.

Edited November 30, 2010 by piranha

[John]

Somebody has a large private collection of that material???

A lot of people have very large collections of Burgess Shale material. I knew a local collector who visited the site in 1949 and he spoke at length about how forest rangers not only guided him to the quarry, but helped him dig through talus. He had a really amazing collection. I don't think most people realize that prior to the ROM taking an interest in the Burgess Shale in 1966, there was a period of over 50 years when Canadian researchers just didn't have any interest in the site. During that time a wide variety of teachers, collectors, hobbyists and the like visited the site and collected specimens. Another collector who has since passed away had over 150 different Burgess species and that was just what was left after he divided his collection in half and sold the other half to a museum.

The honest reality is that while the Burgess Shale is treated today as if it is a gift from Heaven, it hasn't always been viewed that way. Until comparatively recently, it was an interesting curiosity that was open to collecting.

[John]

This just a footnote for those who may be interested... I am not sure if this has already been posted by I just watched a super DVD that I purchased from Ebay... "Darwin Dilemma " on the Cambrian explosion with clips of the Burgess Shale site, and Chengjiang Lagerstatte site and the fossilized fauna of that biota... complete with computer animation of Cambrian creatures also as a bonus... talks and shows Pre-Cambrian fossil record. I really enjoyed this DVD video.

PL

I'm curious about the scientific information presented in the "Darwin's Dilemma" video. Stephen Meyer is an Intelligent Design Creationist attached to the Discovery Institute in Seattle and has made a number of wildly erroneous statements about the "Cambrian Explosion" in the past. His claims about biological "information" are flat out wrong. Does he discuss any of this in the video?

[Wrangellian]

A lot of people have very large collections of Burgess Shale material. I knew a local collector who visited the site in 1949 and he spoke at length about how forest rangers not only guided him to the quarry, but helped him dig through talus. He had a really amazing collection. I don't think most people realize that prior to the ROM taking an interest in the Burgess Shale in 1966, there was a period of over 50 years when Canadian researchers just didn't have any interest in the site. During that time a wide variety of teachers, collectors, hobbyists and the like visited the site and collected specimens. Another collector who has since passed away had over 150 different Burgess species and that was just what was left after he divided his collection in half and sold the other half to a museum.

The honest reality is that while the Burgess Shale is treated today as if it is a gift from Heaven, it hasn't always been viewed that way. Until comparatively recently, it was an interesting curiosity that was open to collecting.

Hmmmmm.. But wasn't it still a park in those days, or were the rules (about taking things and so on) more lax then?

So we've gone from a time when people could legally take spectacular specimens from the site to not being allowed to take even the most humble one that the ROM has rejected. I wonder how many other collections there are out there that people aren't showing for fear of being accused of theft.

[palaeopix]

I'm curious about the scientific information presented in the "Darwin's Dilemma" video. Stephen Meyer is an Intelligent Design Creationist attached to the Discovery Institute in Seattle and has made a number of wildly erroneous statements about the "Cambrian Explosion" in the past. His claims about biological "information" are flat out wrong. Does he discuss any of this in the video?

Hey John,

the video you refer to has been the topic of hot debate elsewhere on the Forum. Please see this thread for more information: http://www.thefossil...ns-dilemma-dvd/

I'd like to avoid reopening that discussion here.

Dan

[grampa dino]

Here are some great books on the Burgess Shale. I recommend each and every one of them. All have great photos and drawings. Some are a bit behind the times on classification but I think that makes them all the more interesting. I refer to them frequently when I need info on the Burgess Shale.

And don't forget Stephen Jay Gould's book Wonderful Life. It's a classic even though much of its content is outdated. Wish I still had my copy!

Dan

[/quote

]Here is yet another book which could be easer to find a great book for the newbee's

isbn 0-393-02705-8

[John]

Hey John,

the video you refer to has been the topic of hot debate elsewhere on the Forum. Please see this thread for more information: http://www.thefossil...ns-dilemma-dvd/

I'd like to avoid reopening that discussion here.

Dan

Thanks for the link Dan!

[MikeD]

I recently got to see a couple of trilobites from there that a collector had acquired from way back when. I believe they have to have documentation with them to state when, where, who, etc. Pretty nice.

[palaeopix]

"Here is yet another book which could be easer to find a great book for the newbee's

isbn 0-393-02705-8

"

Thanks grampa,

I did mention Gould's book in that post but I do not have a copy anymore so I couldn't provide a photo of the cover.

I agree that it is probably a good start for a Burgess Shale newbie but much of the speculation that Gould presents in the book is dated.

The Burgess Shale Geoscience Foundation book is also a very good book for those new to the Burgess Shale.

And thanks for the photo of Gould's book!

Dan

Edited December 3, 2010 by palaeopix

[mattdevereux]

I had the great fortune of working with Dr Desmond Collins at the Burgess Shale from 1990 through 1999. Ten of the most exciting years of excavating and finding fossils I will ever have. I also worked as the primary preparation and collections management person for Burgess material at the R.O.M., as a 'Research Technician', and wrote my M.Sc. thesis on the basis of Raymond Quarry-level specimans collected primarily 1991, 1992 and 1993 (some 9000 fossils in total).

I would like to offer my take on issues with respect to the site, the fossils, their curatorial status and anything else that may be helpful. There is too much in the preceeding pages to address all at once. I no longer work at the R.O.M., and I rarely collect fossils now. Maybe because Arkona stuff is paltry in comparison, I dunno.

Here or by e-mail: mattdevereux <<at>> yahoo.com

Edited January 19, 2011 by mattdevereux

[pleecan]

I had the great fortune of working with Dr Desmond Collins at the Burgess Shale from 1990 through 1999. Ten of the most exciting years of excavating and finding fossils I will ever have. I also worked as the primary preparation and collections management person for Burgess material at the R.O.M., as a 'Research Technician', and wrote my M.Sc. thesis on the basis of Raymond Quarry-level specimans collected primarily 1991, 1992 and 1993 (some 9000 fossils in total).

I would like to offer my take on issues with respect to the site, the fossils, their curatorial status and anything else that may be helpful. There is too much in the preceeding pages to address all at once. I no longer work at the R.O.M., and I rarely collect fossils now. Maybe because Arkona stuff is paltry in comparison, I dunno.

Here or by e-mail: mattdevereux@yahoo.com

Hi Matt:

Your name sounds very familar... I may have met you at Arkona, Hungry Hollow in the old South Clay pit.... you were collecting blastoids in an egg carton.... if memory serves....

Peter

[mattdevereux]

Hi Matt:

Your name sounds very familar... I may have met you at Arkona, Hungry Hollow in the old South Clay pit.... you were collecting blastoids in an egg carton.... if memory serves....

Peter

I've never found more than two or three in a day, so an egg carton sounds too ambitious for me. Plus, blastiods are so, I dunno, Arkona. I would have been going for some big ###### like a placoderm skull. Yeah ... I dream ... big!

[mattdevereux]

I've never found more than two or three in a day, so an egg carton sounds too ambitious for me. Plus, blastiods are so, I dunno, Arkona. I would have been going for some big ###### like a placoderm skull. Yeah ... I dream ... big!

No bad words, eh? That's funny. But NOT very field-like.

[Wrangellian]

No bad words, eh? That's funny. But NOT very field-like.

The forum is apparently auto-censoring... even words like t-o-s-s-e-r are blanked out despite the innocent context I used it in!

[Auspex]

No bad words, eh? That's funny. But NOT very field-like.

We strive to pass the language filters in schools; fail, and the Forum's URL is auto-banned.

Say anything you like in the field

[pleecan]

I've never found more than two or three in a day, so an egg carton sounds too ambitious for me. Plus, blastiods are so, I dunno, Arkona. I would have been going for some big ###### like a placoderm skull. Yeah ... I dream ... big!

Matt:

Nothing wrong with dreaming big... on my hit list are placoderms, pyritized worms and a complete phyllocarid from Arkona....

I am entertained by the rich diversity of microfossils at Arkona.

I have started a new thread on Arkona...

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php/topic/18189-misc-ramblings-on-anything-related-to-arkona/page__pid__201066#entry201066

for those who may wish to continue discussions...

Sorry Dan for straying off topic!

Peter

Edited January 19, 2011 by pleecan

[Frank Menser]

Ok ...since I got invited over, here's my two cents.

First, let me say I have no interest in collecting Burgess Shale material. I have a few TB's from here and ther but it is not an era that I get excited about. Still, I find the pics and unique lifeforms there interesting.

There is a simple, common sense answer to the problem as I indicated in the other thread. Charging a fee for collecting from the talus is a good idea--but also picking up all those going to waste fossils and either selling them in a museum gift shop -- or even on Ebay should bring in extra funding for the museums and also save those 'exposed' fossils from disintigration. It would also curb the potential for illegal collecting as the demand would be less if some were available.

[palaeopix]

There is a simple, common sense answer to the problem as I indicated in the other thread. Charging a fee for collecting from the talus is a good idea--but also picking up all those going to waste fossils and either selling them in a museum gift shop -- or even on Ebay should bring in extra funding for the museums and also save those 'exposed' fossils from disintigration. It would also curb the potential for illegal collecting as the demand would be less if some were available.

Sounds like a great idea Frank but it's not within Parks Canada's mandate to allow the collection of anything, especially Burgess Shale fossils, whether it benefits the park or not!

There are many of us who would willing pay a fee to collect a few samples from the scree, but I'm not certain that will ever be allowed!

Dan

[Wrangellian]

You both have good points... I'm not holding my breath for them to allow fossils be taken from parks, but anything that would get those 'extra' fossils out of there would be better than just leaving them there. There ought to be an exception made for surface fossils as the only thing permitted to be taken from parks (no digging - just fossils found already exposed). Whether collecting be restricted to Canadian citizens, or to anyone with a stipulation that the fossils must be shown to authorities in case they are scientifically important, I don't care. Just don't let a perfectly good fossil rot!

But I wonder how would we get that law changed, if that's even possible? I guess we'd have to go above Parks Canada at least.. no doubt they answer to the gov't who ultimately (are supposed to) answer to the people.

[Holger]

Dear all,

I am new to this forum and I am coming from the microscopy angle as my primary hobby is microscopy.

After having collected a few thin sections with microfossils such as radiolaria, foraminifera, conodonts etc, I got really interested again into fossil hunting which I did with passion when I was a kid. Now of course I am more into hunting microfossils...

I am now aiming to collect a few micro slides with thin sections from each geological epoch, showing its typical microfossils.

Many years ago (back in the 90ties) I got fascinated by the Burgess Shale reports on the web. This is why I was now wondering if there's

- any typical microsfossil(s) from the Burgess Shale epoch

- any prepared thin sections available from this epoch to purchase

- any promising (wrt microfossils) material available from this epoch (small quantity) to do my own thin sectioning?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Holger