Holiday Time Help For A Newbie

[Dermochelys]

Hello Fossil Folks-

This is my first post on the forum, and hopefully I'll have many more. I was hoping to get some advice when it comes to making my first fossil purchase. Ok, so here's the background story...

My family draws names for X-Mas a la "Secret Santa" so we don't know who is buying a gift for whom. This year, I drew my dad (which is probably the least desirable family member). I don't say that to be mean, but he is horribly difficult to buy for. Every year he ends up buying himself gifts and wrapping them up. Ties, shirts, slippers, after-shave, etc just don't work for him because he gets those things for himself. So, my dilemma is finding something unique for around $50 because he really doesn't "need" anything.

So, while racking my brain for some kind of gift idea I remembered a couple of things. 1) He's show an interest in fossilized items before, and 2) I remembered a beautiful Ammonite fossil I saw while visiting Vancouver Island 2 months ago. Last night I did some research, and I think I can get him a nice conversational ammonite piece that would go well with his other collectables.

So, here's my problem though. I have never purchased a fossil before. I have an intense interest in them, but have never gone much beyond text books and tv shows. If I were buying for myself, I'd be looking more into vertebrates, but because I know what he likes, I think and Ammonites would suit his taste more due to thier beautiful colors. So the following are the questions I was hoping the experts here could help me out with.

1) What qualities/characteristics should I look for in an Ammonite fossil? I see some that have been cut where the chambers appear to be soild rock, while others don't look fully filled in. Does this matter when it comes to quality?

2) Is there a difference in how "sliced and polished" fossils are viewed when compared to whole shells? This is personal choice, or do collectors prefer one over the other?

3) I've been reading up quite a bit on fakes. It seems it hits the trilobite market the most, are there fake polished Ammonites out there and how can you tell if one is fake or not?

4) I've read on the forum that you should buy from "reputable dealers". How do you know if someone is "reputable" or not? Some sites seem good, but then I'll see an item that is WAY too good to be true (especailly the trilobites).

5) What would be a reasonable size for the price range I'm looking at ($50). In other words, should I only expect 1" shells, or is the 4-6" in that price range?

6) Can you recommend any online dealers? I'm not trying to promote and particular dealer or put anyone down, but if there's a couple of top quality folks out there it would be nice to know who they are.

7) What else am I missing? Any insights would be great!

Thank you very for reading through the long post and for any help you can provide, this is all REALLY new to me.

[bear-dog]

Just my opinion,I would go for the whole shell.Either pyratized or one with an rainbow appearance.I was in the same boat once with a brother.Bought him one that resembles opal.I created a frankenstein,now every time I attend a fossil show he expects ammonites.

[palaeopix]

I've sent you a Personal Message with some details.

Dan

[Terry Dactyll]

Its always nice if you can make the fossil of local interest... that way it becomes more of a talking point and could potentially get him out there looking himself for more to increase his collection....

Value for money as purely as a display piece is probably Madagascan ammonites which if you google or look on abay for them...I'm sure you would find what you think is appropriate....

[Dermochelys]

Thanks for the input. The reason I ask about the sliced vs. whole ammonites is that I might really be going out on a limb here since I've never gotten him anything like this before. This is either going to be a home run gift, or I'm going to get the "you got me a rock" reaction . If it doesn't go well, he might want to re-sell it and I'm wondering which is more collectable and easier to sell.

Any comments on my other questions...what make a good ammonite, are there fakes to watch out for, what can I expect for $50, good online dealers?

I have finally located a rock shop in my area (Consolidated Rock and Mineral) in Vacaville, CA. Has any worked with them...any comments? I know that's a long shot since the folks here are from all over the world, but it never hurts to ask.

Once again thanks for the help.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Dermochelys

[piranha]

Here are a few ammonites worth looking at with your price point in mind.

These two Ammo1 Ammo2 are very nice Russian ammonites from St. Petersburg Paleontological operated by Arkadiy Evdokimov. Anyone who has purchased fossils from Arkadiy in person at Denver or Tucson can vouch for his high quality and solid reputation - especially the ammonites and trilobites.

Here are two others Ammo3 Ammo4 from a dealer in the Czech Republic that I'm not familiar with.

If I had to purchase a nice representation of an ammonite for around $50 any one of these would do very nicely. My last choice would be the sliced pair unless it were to accompany a whole ammonite for the inside-out look of the way the animal actually looked when alive. The main criteria here are distinct ribbing and well defined whorls that convey unmistakeably that it's an ammonite. Ammo1 gets my top vote with its stunning iridescence and aesthetic presentation on a matrix base eliminating the need for a display stand.

Whatever you decide please post a photo and let us know if the ammonite is a holiday hit. Good Luck!

EDIT: The first two listings are not possible in time for Santa as the seller is at the Tokyo Mineral Show.

Edited December 4, 2010 by piranha

[tracer]

there's that old saying "it's the thought that counts".

at the shows i see large numbers of cut and polished moroccan specimens that have quite a bit of eye appeal and are not particularly expensive. things like that tend to be more "decorator" fossils and are sold and purchased for their eye appeal, so the bottom line there is that whatever looks the best to you becomes the issue.

i empathize with your plight on attempting to gift under perceived social pressure, but it seems a bit sad to feel that way. i consider it the obligation of the recipient of a gift to always react with appreciation based on the kindness expressed, as opposed to the desirability of the particular item gifted. one of my favorite gifts was one from my father. it was a buffalo nickel that he had given his eldest sister when he was a child and she had kept all her life and gave back to him when he was perhaps 70. there is nothing special about the coin, other than that it's absolutely priceless.

[Dermochelys]

@Tracer: I 100% agree with you that it's the thought that counts. He'll like anything I get him for the sake that I gave it to him. Basically, I wanted to get him something that's unique this year and I thought this would fit the bill. We have an online list the family is sharing to give eachother ideas on what to get for our picked person. He put "cloth handkerchiefs" and that's it, so the bar is pretty low. He's a loving father and I usually get him very basic gifts (like pumice stones to clean is BBQ), so this year I thought it would be nice to try and step it up just a bit. Besides, if I wasn't 95% sure he would like it, I wouldn't get it for him.

@Piranha: Wow, those are amazing specimens, I really like #1. Personally I wouldn't slice and polish, but I'm thinking of his tastes. These are some of the examples I've been looking at (NOTE: I'm not promoting these websites in anyway, this is for demonstration only)

1) http://www.indiana9fossils.com/Ammonites/Madagascar/LgWhole/1-10/lg5.JPG

2) http://www.indiana9fossils.com/Ammonites/Madagascar/LgWhole/51-60/lg1a.JPG

3) http://www.indiana9fossils.com/Ammonites/Madagascar/Medium%20Plus%20Sliced/1-10/lg10.JPG

4) http://www.stonesbones.com/120210m.jpg

5) http://www.stonesbones.com/082409r.jpg

I'm going to try my local fossil shop tomorrow and see what they have in stock. I continue to scour the net, so keep the suggestions coming.

P.S. Are these an abomination to real fossil collectors because they've been polished?

Edited December 4, 2010 by Dermochelys

[BobWill]

Nothing that pretty could be an abomination. Might send us into a jealous rage for not finding them ourselves... but not outright disdain.

[piranha]

In all of the photos of the uncut ammonites the whorls are damaged/missing from either poor preservation and/or preparation. The whorls are a signature characteristic of ammonites. You should make sure to hold out for a complete specimen. Better off to acquire a good one than to settle for anything beat up or weathered. I see you're leaning toward the Cleoniceras from Madagascar. These are polished to reveal the growth sutures and make for a great focal point of interest. Post any others you're considering and we will assist with the big purchase.

Edited December 4, 2010 by piranha

[BobWill]

Most involute ammonites I've found have poor preservation on inner whorls. Is that common or just bad luck? Anyway these are usually the ones with the showiest sutures if that is what appeals to you.

[piranha]

Most involute ammonites I've found have poor preservation on inner whorls. Is that common or just bad luck? Anyway these are usually the ones with the showiest sutures if that is what appeals to you.

I can't comment on ratios of complete versus incomplete ammonites but given the staggering abundance it makes sense to insist on a textbook example. There are 7000+ ammonite fossils on ebay and countless others from the various web outlets. It's just a matter of research and effort to find the right one. Time well spent IMHO.

[piranha]

Here's one that preserves the whorls more or less:

Ammo1

BobWill is spot on about the disparity of complete examples. I'm sure the quality improves with the price tag. That was just ebay so I'll poke around for you as I make the rounds. There's always a diamond in the rough somewhere! Within 48 hours you will have one in your cross-hairs.

Who among us will find it? I'm on it!

EDIT: Adding Links Here:

LINK1 This page has many examples that preserve the whorls nicely. This is a very reputable seller with a great variety of fossils in all categories.

Edited December 4, 2010 by piranha

[siteseer]

Since you're in Northern California, you can try contacting the Natural Canvas based in San Mateo. While it's an online business, you can also make an appointment and visit if you're planning to be in the area anyway or don't mind the drive. They don't specialize in ammonites but there are a few from less than $10 and others further into your price range and more expensive specimens.

I don't think they have any polished ammonites. They cater more to the collector rather than to the decorator but they have contacts worldwide and the company been in business since the mid-90's. I should note that the owner is an old friend so I am not unbiased but he can help you. He might even have a sea turtle fossil or two (if he doesn't, I'll send him something).

Hello Fossil Folks-

This is my first post on the forum, and hopefully I'll have many more. I was hoping to get some advice when it comes to making my first fossil purchase. Ok, so here's the background story...

My family draws names for X-Mas a la "Secret Santa" so we don't know who is buying a gift for whom. This year, I drew my dad (which is probably the least desirable family member). I don't say that to be mean, but he is horribly difficult to buy for. Every year he ends up buying himself gifts and wrapping them up. Ties, shirts, slippers, after-shave, etc just don't work for him because he gets those things for himself. So, my dilemma is finding something unique for around $50 because he really doesn't "need" anything.

So, while racking my brain for some kind of gift idea I remembered a couple of things. 1) He's show an interest in fossilized items before, and 2) I remembered a beautiful Ammonite fossil I saw while visiting Vancouver Island 2 months ago. Last night I did some research, and I think I can get him a nice conversational ammonite piece that would go well with his other collectables.

So, here's my problem though. I have never purchased a fossil before. I have an intense interest in them, but have never gone much beyond text books and tv shows. If I were buying for myself, I'd be looking more into vertebrates, but because I know what he likes, I think and Ammonites would suit his taste more due to thier beautiful colors. So the following are the questions I was hoping the experts here could help me out with.

1) What qualities/characteristics should I look for in an Ammonite fossil? I see some that have been cut where the chambers appear to be soild rock, while others don't look fully filled in. Does this matter when it comes to quality?

2) Is there a difference in how "sliced and polished" fossils are viewed when compared to whole shells? This is personal choice, or do collectors prefer one over the other?

3) I've been reading up quite a bit on fakes. It seems it hits the trilobite market the most, are there fake polished Ammonites out there and how can you tell if one is fake or not?

4) I've read on the forum that you should buy from "reputable dealers". How do you know if someone is "reputable" or not? Some sites seem good, but then I'll see an item that is WAY too good to be true (especailly the trilobites).

5) What would be a reasonable size for the price range I'm looking at ($50). In other words, should I only expect 1" shells, or is the 4-6" in that price range?

6) Can you recommend any online dealers? I'm not trying to promote and particular dealer or put anyone down, but if there's a couple of top quality folks out there it would be nice to know who they are.

7) What else am I missing? Any insights would be great!

Thank you very for reading through the long post and for any help you can provide, this is all REALLY new to me.

[Terry Dactyll]

The problem with the russian ones... the ammonite might be natural... but they are stuck to a new rock and the join covered in pyrite glitter.... so they are more works of art as opposed to true fossils I feel... as a collector when this penny drops their value in the collection becomes zero....

Edited December 4, 2010 by Terry Dactyll

[Auspex]

How 'bout an eye-candy ammonite, with display stand, wrapped in some nice handkerchiefs?

[dhk]

I would suggest e-bay if not only to research availability and prices. I like to avoid anything form Morocco or China as there are many fakes from there on line. Other than that, try Indiana9Fossils.com or 3guysfossils.com on line. I know these ones are spot on and honest. Oh and by the way, if your giving fossils for the holidays, are you looking to be adopted? lol As far as which ones??? Get the ones that are interesting to you.

Edited December 4, 2010 by dhk

[Dermochelys]

Oh and by the way, if your giving fossils for the holidays, are you looking to be adopted? lol

I'm not quite sure how to take that, are you saying I'm going to be disowned or that you'd like to adopt? j/k

@siteseer: If I'm in the San Mateo area I'll check them out, thanks for the reference.

@Piranha: Those are very nice links. One concern I do have is that almost certainly this will be displayed in a large family room. I'm hoping to get something in the 4-6" range. The page you linked to with the multiple examples might be too small for the space. If they were sliced, then I could probably get away with a 3" specimen. I do understand I'm not going to get a perfect fossil in my price range if I decide to go bigger, it's all a trade-off.

[Dermochelys]

@dhk: I'm worried about buying from ebay. It seems like there's a much higher risk of picking up a fake.

[Terry Dactyll]

for this price range... ebay is your best bet... competitiveness and greed has made it so everyone gets minimal profit.....

[bear-dog]

Check Cerelles Fossils and Collectables on e-bay.There is a cool one for 30.00 and a killer one[to me] for $75.00.

If you purchase the $75.00 one to give away to someone,I can be adopted also. :lol:

Just a couple more choices for you to window shop through.

[Dermochelys]

Just as a general question, I've noticed on many of the ammonites have a similar color pattern to the fossilization. Was this due to different chemicals in different parts of the shell or to something else?

For instance...

Sliced 1

looks alot like...

Sliced 2

and...

Sliced 3

They all have the redish inner chambers that then turn to grey as you go outward.

Also, this can be seen in the whole sepeciemens...

Whole 1

Edited December 5, 2010 by Dermochelys

[Dermochelys]

Ok, I went to two fossil shops today. One was very large, but was more of a rock hound shop and they didn't have any ammonites over 2"

The second had one ammonite the size I'm hoping for, but for over $250! It was no better or larger than what I've seen online for $45.

I did decide that I'm going to go with a sliced and polished specimen. I really think that will be better over a whole one in this situation. So my three main questions are.

1) Is an ammonite with chambers that haven't completed filled more or less desirable?

2) Are 4-6" sliced and polished ones translucent? (this doesn't come through well online). Basically, I'm wondering if back-lighting them will make for a nice display.

3) It seems that the Madagascar ammonites are the most commonly sliced and polished. I've also seen some Russian ones. Are there any other groups (families, locations) that really make for great sliced and polished presentations?

Thanks again for all of the help.

[siteseer]

1. I don't think it makes a difference, but given the choice, someone might with the filled-in one. The overall look is more important as a display piece.

2. This would something to ask the dealer. He might take photos for you so you can see what specimens look like backlit.

3. Some Sphenodiscus specimens used to come out of Mexico in the 80's and 90's. Even then, exporting ammonites was against Mexican law but it strangely allowed them out only if they were cut and polished (suddenly classified as a handmade product, artwork, or otherwise legal). They were pretty big too.

What fossil shop is near Rocklin?

Ok, I went to two fossil shops today. One was very large, but was more of a rock hound shop and they didn't have any ammonites over 2"

The second had one ammonite the size I'm hoping for, but for over $250! It was no better or larger than what I've seen online for $45.

I did decide that I'm going to go with a sliced and polished specimen. I really think that will be better over a whole one in this situation. So my three main questions are.

1) Is an ammonite with chambers that haven't completed filled more or less desirable?

2) Are 4-6" sliced and polished ones translucent? (this doesn't come through well online). Basically, I'm wondering if back-lighting them will make for a nice display.

3) It seems that the Madagascar ammonites are the most commonly sliced and polished. I've also seen some Russian ones. Are there any other groups (families, locations) that really make for great sliced and polished presentations?

Thanks again for all of the help.

Edited December 6, 2010 by siteseer

[Dermochelys]

Ok, it's time to figure out which one to get. I decided to go with a 3-4" sliced specimen (which these all are) and they all run for the same price. Let me know what you think!