Anna Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I want to collect this ammonite, but the shale/limestone it's in is rather fragile. How do I get it up without ruining it, or can I? In a way I hate to leave it, as it's in an area that is subject to a lot of activity, vandalism, etc., but I'm also averse to removing something only to see it destroyed. Also, can I do the same with whatever this is? Thanks, Anna Anna and John SE Oklahoma ____________________________________________________________________________________ "Life is an occasion, rise to it." --Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium" http://www.johnsdiscoveries.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Anna, VERY CAREFULLY! You do not mention how this is oriented. Are you looking at it from above it, or are you facing this, perpendicularly? Usually, to remove a piece of rock, you need to cut/break around it, and beneath it, to get it out. Basically making cuts or breaking with hammer and chisels leaving PLENTY of clearance around the fossil, in case it fractures the wrong way. Try to use natural bedding planes/cracks already existing. Sometimes, even this is not enough, and the specimen may break. Just work slowly and in the event it does break, just find/keep all the pieces, and get some superglue! Hope this is somewhat helpful. Good luck! Regards, Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I would follow Tim's advice. As said, start well away from the ammonite and try to keep your chiseling blows from being directly toward it. Also, get deep enough to be well past the opposite face before you do start your 'undercut' chiseling. The rock looks very fractured, so don't be too disappointed if it breaks. The lower photo looks like a couple of eroded Trigonia sp. bivalves. You may find better specimens in the area. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Siphuncle Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Looks like an Oxytropidoceras in Goodland limestone...can be very hard stuff. Grüße, Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas "To the motivated go the spoils." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 If you have time, one thing you can do is put a heavy coating of white glue, like Elmers over the entire fossil and let it dry. It will help keep small pieces from chipping off and absorb some of the vibrations. When you get the fossil out, then just a good soaking in water will dissolve the glue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Anna... It looks to me there are some 'natural' cracks running about in the limestone... have a good look and locate those around your ammonite... you may be able to use those... you need a narrow headed chisel, no wider than 1/2" and maybe a 4lb hammer... the narrow face of the chisel will ensure the force of the hammer blow isnt dispersed and wasted, and will be more effective... If there are natural fissures surrounding the ammonite try and use these, to losen the rock containing the ammonite... if not... you are going to have to start cutting a trench around the fossil, maybe 6 inches or so all around it... and chisel this trench at least 3 inches deep.... then you will be able to get an angle to chisel the rock away from underneath... I hope this makes sense... if your not sure... take a photo of the area the ammonite is in and let us take a look at the natural fissures around it... we may have a better idea then, and can be more helpful... good luck... Edited January 6, 2011 by Terry Dactyll Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 ....and take a deep breath before you start and sort of "feel" your way when you get close to removing it. Better to tap gently around it first rather than slugging without thought. Check each time for new cracks you may be able to utilize without having to bang too hard. Roger Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share Posted January 6, 2011 @ Tim: I'm looking at this from above. @ Daniel: Yes, Goodland limestone. This stuff is right on the surface and fractures so easily, it's ridiculous. These ammonites are all over the place in the area, but getting one out in any semblance of a condition to be salvaged is a trial. We find pieces of them loose, then impressions such as this. Usually, so much fracture has occurred that there is a lot of erosion between the fractures; some pieces turn to dust. Here's a bit wider view: Maybe I'm mistaken in going after it? I do find the presence of the large protrusion to be interesting. We find pieces of these as casts, nothing too complete. Impressions are usually the only thing that we find entire. Anna and John SE Oklahoma ____________________________________________________________________________________ "Life is an occasion, rise to it." --Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium" http://www.johnsdiscoveries.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Anna, Nothing ventured,... nothing gained. You have photos of it complete. If it were me, I'd go for it. Just go slow and steady, and keep an eye out for pieces that try to fly away from you. Maybe even using some duct tape, or cardboard covering on top of it, to keep pieces from doing just that, and flying away. Let us know how you make out if you go for it. Best of luck, and Regards, Edited January 6, 2011 by Fossildude19 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Siphuncle Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 You did the most important thing right...get good pictures of it in situ. The rest is a snarge shoot! I've broken my share. Grüße, Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas "To the motivated go the spoils." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 You should also keep in mind you may never be able to completely remove it from the matrix but it can certainly be displayed nicely with just one side showing and cleaned up as much as possible. The protrusion may be a lappet which is a lateral extension of the shell on either side of the aperture that appears on some species but this looks more like the remains of the ventral keel left behind after a predator bit out the body chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Just curious but does anyone ever use a power saw with a stone cutting blade to do some of the cutting? May not be practical to carry around in the field, but if it works, you might be able to return to the spot with a battery operated circular saw and do some cutting. Just a thought. Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 i'm always the odd vote but i'd just leave those where they are and keep exploring wide and far for examples in friendlier conditions. i know they're out there, and looking is funner to me than whanging or sawing out stuff. i take photos of that sort of thing and move on. tj, on the other hand, has always been crazy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Don't know how hard that limestone is, but I have used a cordless power drill on Fort Hays Limestone with some succcess. For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megalodon Man Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Life is about trial and error. Try your best best to get it out complete but don't let it be a heart breaker if it doesn't. There are plenty more fossils to be found. Whatever method you decide on will give you valuable experience for future finds. Like the old nike saying...Just do it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Gas powered rock saw: http://www.toolbarn.com/power-tools/gas-powered/saws/masonry-saws.html See if you can rent one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Yes, renting one is better if you don't need to use one regularly. I bet they can be found for cheaper than that, though.. I bought one of the stand-alone bench type for $200-something. Depending on the type of rock/fossil, though, this type of saw can be a bit excessive.. I wonder if it's possible to find a smaller, more portable electric saw with a smaller blade, maybe some sort of battery pack to power it out in the field where you don't have a power outlet.. This won't produce as much noise and therefore less likely to attract unwanted attention if you're in a public area... and sometimes all you need is a little help to supplement the chiseling. I'll be looking into this come spring. Edited January 7, 2011 by Wrangellian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) They retrieve brittle starfish in the Uk using a rocksaw and you have to apply for permission to do it.... the fossil would usually be wrecked if collected any other way... you cut into the rock from 4 sides around the fossil on an angle basically forming a pyramid if you like, with the apex of the pyramid underneath the fossil.... that way when you come to chisel the rest, the angles you have created give you a clean break....otherwise you cant use rocksaws other than with permission in quarries... saying that... the first thing the professionsals grab when they find anything for the museum is a rocksaw... although if everyone had one, the asthetics of the beaches could be changed and you cant account for the 'idiot factor' with these things... so generally they are banned... Edited January 7, 2011 by Terry Dactyll Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 My better half, who is fantastically supportive of John and me, has offered to borrow a saw from his place of employment...I'm just trying to wrap my head around lugging it down to the site. This is on a lake bluff, and normally well-covered with water, however the level is so low in the lake that it exposed. Anna and John SE Oklahoma ____________________________________________________________________________________ "Life is an occasion, rise to it." --Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium" http://www.johnsdiscoveries.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 My better half, who is fantastically supportive of John and me, has offered to borrow a saw from his place of employment...I'm just trying to wrap my head around lugging it down to the site. This is on a lake bluff, and normally well-covered with water, however the level is so low in the lake that it exposed. Sounds like you're gonna need a long extension cord Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 prolly want to make sure you're collecting in a place where it's allowed if yer gonna be firing up a big ole gas saw and attacking a lake bluff with it. sounds attention-getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOM BUCKLEY Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I've been casually looking into two tools to make collecting easier. First is an electric "Hammer Drill". It's a drill, or a drill with a hammering action, or just a hammer action. I was thinking...if I got one with one of those new lithium - ion batteries and replaced the drill bit with a chisel bit, I'd have a nice electric chisel. They also come with an adjustment for length of stroke. The other is a battery operated circular saw with a 4-6" diamond blade to cut through layers. What do you think? If I go for one or both of these I'll let the Forum know how it goes. Tom AVOCATIONAL PALEONTOLOGIST STROKE SURVIVOR CANCER SURVIVOR CURMUDGEON "THERE IS A VERY FINE LINE BETWEEN AVOCATIONAL PALEONTOLOGY AND MENTAL ILLNESS" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I've been casually looking into two tools to make collecting easier. First is an electric "Hammer Drill". It's a drill, or a drill with a hammering action, or just a hammer action. I was thinking...if I got one with one of those new lithium - ion batteries and replaced the drill bit with a chisel bit, I'd have a nice electric chisel. They also come with an adjustment for length of stroke. The other is a battery operated circular saw with a 4-6" diamond blade to cut through layers. What do you think? If I go for one or both of these I'll let the Forum know how it goes. Tom I'll look forward to hearing what you find out.. That saw in particular sounds like exactly what I need. However I'd like one that doesn't need water to cut, ideally, as the shale in my area can crumble on exposure to water, especially specimens that have been dry indoors for any length of time (once it's dry, becoming wet again can be disastrous). I don't know what kinds of blades there are or the various diameters available but there must be something out there that fits the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 Sounds like you're gonna need a long extension cord Nah...he has a generator on the truck and we can pull down close enough...with the long extension cord Anna and John SE Oklahoma ____________________________________________________________________________________ "Life is an occasion, rise to it." --Mr. Magorium, "Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium" http://www.johnsdiscoveries.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeloiVarden Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 If you are that near water, make sure the extension cord is grounded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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