Unpublicized Dinosaur Footprints

[fowells]

An aquaintance took me to a creek bed to show me some three toed dinosaur foot prints in the limestone ledge rock in the bottom of the creek. The foot prints are very clear, all the same size and not mistakable for anything else.

The aquaintance told me that grade school field trips have visited the creek for generations and that Carl Baugh had cut out and taken one of the foot prints about a decade ago.

I went online to see what I could learn about the site and was surprised that there was not a single reference to it in Google.

Is there a work or site dedicated to cataloging these sites. Are the dino foot prints so common that sites are not cataloged?

What are the pros and cons of putting a site like this on the map?

[HeritageFossils]

There are tons of undocumented tracks out there, unfortunately there's only a handful of people working on tracks in North America. A set of tracks in Texas may just be a curiosity.

The con with putting a site like that on the map is that unethical collectors will visit and collect all the tracks. There's not many pro's aside from increasing tourism, slightly.

Best to just take pictures for now to document them, incase the tracks do disappear at some point.

-YvW

[LanceH]

An aquaintance took me to a creek bed to show me some three toed dinosaur foot prints in the limestone ledge rock in the bottom of the creek. The foot prints are very clear, all the same size and not mistakable for anything else.

The aquaintance told me that grade school field trips have visited the creek for generations and that Carl Baugh had cut out and taken one of the foot prints about a decade ago.

I went online to see what I could learn about the site and was surprised that there was not a single reference to it in Google.

Is there a work or site dedicated to cataloging these sites. Are the dino foot prints so common that sites are not cataloged?

What are the pros and cons of putting a site like this on the map?

I don't know of any "official" database of dinosaur tracks. Google just indexes Internet pages and should never be used to prove or disprove anything. It maybe possible that the closest university or museum has a record of it. It's also possible it's already been referenced in something published in the "Journal of Paleontology" or others.

If you can locate the spot on a geologic map try to figure out what Formation it comes from. I assume it's Glen Rose.

Geologic Maps Here: http://www.twdb.stat...A/GAT/index.htm

The upper Glen Rose Formation is reported to contain like 50 known trackways (this was years ago) but I don't know what the source information for that is yet.

Me and Roz discovered a new dinosaur trackway ourselves last year in Glen Rose. I photographed and sent the info to many local professional paleontologists, the City Visitor's Bureau, and posted pics on various websites. This still didn't stop a commercial "paleontologist" Jerry Jacene to claim discovery 10 months after us and get his name in the paper. In hindsight I should have went to the newspaper as well.

Edited February 18, 2011 by LanceHall

[Auspex]

Sometimes, the last thing something like this needs is broad publicity...

[tracer]

i would probably try to carefully document the information myself, by taking lots of photos and measurements and maybe even shooting a gps reading and casting a print or three. then i'd briefly ask myself what the best way is for the tracks to not be destroyed or defaced by others, for whatever period of time they might continue to exist. then i'd leave and move on to the next place in my life to which i'll probably never return.

i can't remember the last time i considered calling the media about anything. i am of the opinion that news coverage is frequently not desired, and rarely of benefit, and that in a lot of circumstances, the media isn't your friend.

[Boneman007]

This type of thing falls into the paleontological grey zone. How important is a fossil? Many times fossils only become important when someone wants to study them. Sometimes it's up to us, the non-professionals to save fossils from eventual theft, or at least erosion.

My advice to you is to rent a small tractor and a large diameter self propelled diamond saw. Get some day laborers to clear whatever overburden is necessary. measure out and graph all tracks. Take a GPS of a point on the graph. Cut the tracks out of the field. Be sure to seal all tracks. Take a isolated track and have it auctioned at a high end paleo auction. Keep one isolated track (You have to keep one!), and donate the other tracks, especially any associated tracks to UT in Austin. The auction will provide enough capital to offset any rental and day-labor costs. Someday, when these tracks become "important", they will be there for study. Also, by auctioning one track, you can use the sale price to help determine your tax deduction. Depending on how many tracks you donate, you can create a very large tax deduction.

Sometimes we just have to take science into our own hands...

Good Luck! Let me know if you need any free labor!! I could probably come up with quite a few people willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement so the tracks get properly currated.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Boneman007

[Tony Eaton]

maybe hide them a bit? If anything just keep them out of the news.

Here is what was done to the Lake Grapevine prints (at least initially, I believe they are under gunite for now for protection.)

http://www.swf.usace.army.mil/pubdata/pao/releases/fy2006/nr06-026.pdf

[JohnJ]

An aquaintance took me to a creek bed to show me some three toed dinosaur foot prints in the limestone ledge rock in the bottom of the creek. The foot prints are very clear, all the same size and not mistakable for anything else.

The aquaintance told me that grade school field trips have visited the creek for generations and that Carl Baugh had cut out and taken one of the foot prints about a decade ago.

I went online to see what I could learn about the site and was surprised that there was not a single reference to it in Google.

Is there a work or site dedicated to cataloging these sites. Are the dino foot prints so common that sites are not cataloged?

What are the pros and cons of putting a site like this on the map?

They are obviously already well-known if Carl Baugh and school field trips have been visiting there so long. I'd say leave 'em as they lay. Photograph them like many before you. You could cast them with a latex if possible so as not to damage them. Then, they will be there to spark the wonder and imagination of future visitors. I know of some similar tracks in Central Texas that have been visited for generations; I hope people will leave them there for others to experience. If they were in danger of imminent destruction, I would suggest consulting with professionals and the landowner regarding removal.

[tracer]

um, ixnay on the actortray. when the laws show up, the day laborers will scatter, and you'll be standin' there by yerself, going, "occifer, we wuz preventin' teh dino tracks frum being stolen by takin' them ourselves - ain't that right, guys? <lookin around> guy?!?"

if yer not lucky a group of school kids will show up right about then and all start cryin'...

[Boneman007]

um, ixnay on the actortray. when the laws show up, the day laborers will scatter, and you'll be standin' there by yerself, going, "occifer, we wuz preventin' teh dino tracks frum being stolen by takin' them ourselves - ain't that right, guys? <lookin around> guy?!?"

if yer not lucky a group of school kids will show up right about then and all start cryin'...

Obviously I was assuming that permission had been granted to take the tracks out.

If not, leave them there. You should never tresspass for fossils. (That's my official stand on the subject - Stop snickering, Dan!)

[AeroMike]

well, back in the early 90's I was stationed at Ft Carson, CO. We went down to Pinon Canyon for training. Our training was halted due to dinosaur tracks found and I also heard some Native American village remains were found too but that I am not 100% on.

[fowells]

um, ixnay on the actortray. when the laws show up, the day laborers will scatter, and you'll be standin' there by yerself, going, "occifer, we wuz preventin' teh dino tracks frum being stolen by takin' them ourselves - ain't that right, guys? <lookin around> guy?!?"

if yer not lucky a group of school kids will show up right about then and all start cryin'...

OK. I'll just continue to enjoy them with the rest of the local folks. They are in Eastern Wise County.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

I'm wondering if it would make sense to look up Glen Kuban and have him weigh in as he's documented this sort of thing before.

[fowells]

I'm wondering if it would make sense to look up Glen Kuban and have him weigh in as he's documented this sort of thing before.

danwoehr - I sent him an email. I'll post his answer if he gives one.

[fowells]

I'm wondering if it would make sense to look up Glen Kuban and have him weigh in as he's documented this sort of thing before.

danwoehr,

Glen Kuban replied to my email saying he would like for me to send him info on the tracksite - that he and others are interested in documenting all of them. I'll gather the info and send it to him. At this point, I don't even know the name of the creek or who owns the part with tracks in the bed.

[LanceH]

Glen Kuban replied to my email saying he would like for me to send him info on the tracksite - that he and others are interested in documenting all of them. I'll gather the info and send it to him. At this point, I don't even know the name of the creek or who owns the part with tracks in the bed.

Fowells, you need to contact Roger Fry with the Arlington Archosaur Site. He helped me document the NEW tracks in Glen Rose behind the Comfort Inn Hotel that we found and others also in Wise county and Glen Rose years ago. It's possible Roger may already know about them. I'd like to see the tracks and photograph them also if you don't have problem with that. You might also contact Dr. James O. Farlow and inform him.

Edited February 23, 2011 by LanceHall

[LanceH]

There definitely needs to be some sort of database at some University or museum to keep track of all the trackways and keep a record of who first reported and such.

[fowells]

Fowells, you need to contact Roger Fry with the Arlington Archosaur Site. He helped me document the NEW tracks in Glen Rose behind the Comfort Inn Hotel that we found and others also in Wise county and Glen Rose years ago. It's possible Roger may already know about them. I'd like to see the tracks and photograph them also if you don't have problem with that. You might also contact Dr. James O. Farlow and inform him.

Lance, can you provide email addresses for Roger Fry and Dr. James O. Farlow?

[bear-dog]

Save da prints but by all means post some pics PLEASE.

[LanceH]

Lance, can you provide email addresses for Roger Fry and Dr. James O. Farlow?

Roger is gonna post later he said.

[Roger]

Hi guys -

Lance Hall informed me that this thread was going on - thought I'd jump in for a bit.

The tracks you speak of are on private property in Wise county. I was first introduced to these tracks on July 25, 1993 (yep - 18 years ago)!!!

My interest in fossils has been ongoing since the age of 7 and when I moved to TX in '86 (150th anniversary of Texas freedom), I worked for a company whose boss knew the individual in question. We went out to the property and it is very impressive at first sight. Met Carl Baugh at the site and we all examined the tracks and there were two VERY impressive tracks - both theropod and in sequence (left/right). I only had my field book and a yard stick borrowed from the landowner and I started documentation that day. I eventually worked a lot in the creekbed and documented both with photos (35mm - no digital at that time) and did paper documentation on tracks as well as trackways. I also was there to help Carl take out one of the tracks that the landowner donated to the Creation Evidences Museum in Glen Rose. It is still on display there. . . fantastic track. Before anyone gets up in arms about taking the track out. . . it was on the edge of a shelf that the creek was undercutting. Chances are that the next "left" footprint in front of this one had been undercut and destroyed. Had the track not been taken out - it would have suffered the same fate fairly soon. As it was - I have pictures of it 'in situ' as well as paper documentation.

Interesting story. . . remember I said it was a left - right sequence. Well the next left (in front of the existing right) was obviously destoyed as the shelf(layer) that it was on had been eroded away. However a possible right track behind the the rear left track looked as though it could be buried in the creek bank - so we spent the better part of a day taking down overburden behind the left print to the rock layer looking for another right print. . . . only to find that it didn't preserve - at all!!! Such is fossil preservation - it's a snarge shoot!!

The creekbed is definately upper Glen Rose formation just below the Paluxy sand. I am in the process of contacting the landowner again thru his son-in-law to do further work.

So don't worry. . . the documentation has been done a while ago - it has just taken me 18 years to get back there!!! I now volunteer as a research associate for the Scotese Museum at the University of Texas - Arlington. Our large project is the Arlington Archosaur Site (see our FB page) where I run the dig site and head up the preparation lab. We have taken out most of the post cranial skeleton of a "protohadrous" hadrosaur and have at least one new crocodile and a paper in publication of a new species of lungfish. This has kept me busy the last three years plus - of course - having to work at a "day" job to support my paleo habit.

If anyone would like more information - my email is rffry47 <at> sbcglobal.net BTW - if you are ever in the DFW area on the weekend - we are generally at the site. Drop me an email and come on out to dig with us. . . can't take anything home except blisters and a sunburn but you'll have a great time!

thanks

Roger

[fowells]

Hi guys -

Lance Hall informed me that this thread was going on - thought I'd jump in for a bit.

The tracks you speak of are on private property in Wise county. I was first introduced to these tracks on July 25, 1993 (yep - 18 years ago)!!!

My interest in fossils has been ongoing since the age of 7 and when I moved to TX in '86 (150th anniversary of Texas freedom), I worked for a company whose boss knew the individual in question. We went out to the property and it is very impressive at first sight. Met Carl Baugh at the site and we all examined the tracks and there were two VERY impressive tracks - both theropod and in sequence (left/right). I only had my field book and a yard stick borrowed from the landowner and I started documentation that day. I eventually worked a lot in the creekbed and documented both with photos (35mm - no digital at that time) and did paper documentation on tracks as well as trackways. I also was there to help Carl take out one of the tracks that the landowner donated to the Creation Evidences Museum in Glen Rose. It is still on display there. . . fantastic track. Before anyone gets up in arms about taking the track out. . . it was on the edge of a shelf that the creek was undercutting. Chances are that the next "left" footprint in front of this one had been undercut and destroyed. Had the track not been taken out - it would have suffered the same fate fairly soon. As it was - I have pictures of it 'in situ' as well as paper documentation.

Interesting story. . . remember I said it was a left - right sequence. Well the next left (in front of the existing right) was obviously destoyed as the shelf(layer) that it was on had been eroded away. However a possible right track behind the the rear left track looked as though it could be buried in the creek bank - so we spent the better part of a day taking down overburden behind the left print to the rock layer looking for another right print. . . . only to find that it didn't preserve - at all!!! Such is fossil preservation - it's a snarge shoot!!

The creekbed is definately upper Glen Rose formation just below the Paluxy sand. I am in the process of contacting the landowner again thru his son-in-law to do further work.

So don't worry. . . the documentation has been done a while ago - it has just taken me 18 years to get back there!!! I now volunteer as a research associate for the Scotese Museum at the University of Texas - Arlington. Our large project is the Arlington Archosaur Site (see our FB page) where I run the dig site and head up the preparation lab. We have taken out most of the post cranial skeleton of a "protohadrous" hadrosaur and have at least one new crocodile and a paper in publication of a new species of lungfish. This has kept me busy the last three years plus - of course - having to work at a "day" job to support my paleo habit.

If anyone would like more information - my email is rffry47 <at> sbcglobal.net BTW - if you are ever in the DFW area on the weekend - we are generally at the site. Drop me an email and come on out to dig with us. . . can't take anything home except blisters and a sunburn but you'll have a great time!

thanks

Roger

Roger, If you can, let me know when you're going to revisit the site. I'd like to help if I can and just absorb some paleo knowledge if not.

[Roger]

Not a problem. . . . contact me off forum at rffry47<at>sbcglobal.net and I will keep you informed when I am going. Have contacted the landowner and believe he is receptive to me crawling all over his property again <grin>. Right now I am scanning in my 35mm pictures from '93 and putting them together with my documentation from my field book and my track paperwork.

I appreciate your offer to help as I can always use an extra set of hands to clean and map tracks.

Roger

[fowells]

Not a problem. . . . contact me off forum at rffry47<at>sbcglobal.net and I will keep you informed when I am going. Have contacted the landowner and believe he is receptive to me crawling all over his property again <grin>. Right now I am scanning in my 35mm pictures from '93 and putting them together with my documentation from my field book and my track paperwork.

I appreciate your offer to help as I can always use an extra set of hands to clean and map tracks.

Roger

Roger - will do.

[Roger]

Finally got my pictures scanned from 1993. . . .

Attached are a couple of pictures of the large track/track way. This is the one similar to the one that we removed due to potential erosion:

Biggest "acro-like" track I have ever seen.

Will keep you updated on further discoveried in the creek