paleoflor Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) Hi all, Today was the first time this year I went fossil hunting. I went to the Carboniferous Coal Measure spoil tips in the Southern part of the Netherlands. The plant-finds were somewhat disappointing unfortunately (I'll post some later), but I also found this: Unidentified fossil, Laura-Vereeniging spoil tip (Zuid Limburg, the Netherlands) - Carboniferous, Westphalian A This fossil intrigues me. I've never seen such venation in foliage types I know of. However, there might be something present that acts as a midvein. However, then the leaves need to be very asymmetric. Could it be a set of dragonfly wings? The relative orientation is a bit strange then... What do you think?!?! I enhanced the contrast of the image somewhat to show venation. Since I have collected both the positive and the negative, please let me know when photo's of the negative might help a more detailed determination! Tim Edited March 13, 2011 by paleoflor Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'm no expert, but I can't think of any insect wings with a mid-rib like that. I vote for plant. Either way it is a nice fossil! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Tim.... Im not convinced they are wings... (fingers crossed they are) but as Auspex says the mid rib seems to say different... I cant think what they could be... maybe Bruno might know... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'm no expert, but I can't think of any insect wings with a mid-rib like that. I vote for plant. Either way it is a nice fossil! I agree about the midvein - problem is I wouldn't know what kind of (Carboniferous) plant it could be... Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Tim.... Im not convinced they are wings... (fingers crossed they are) but as Auspex says the mid rib seems to say different... I cant think what they could be... maybe Bruno might know... Haha, honestly: I'd be equally happy with a plant fossil of a type I do not have yet The main point is that I do not know how to identify this specimen; being either a plant of something else... Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyguy784 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Mid-vein looks to centralized to the structure to be a wing. Maybe RomanK has an idea. Try PMing him. I believe it's plant. However, a Carboniferous plant specimen that's this difficult to ID, it's all good. Hope to see an ID. Gotta a scale on that piece? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Gotta a scale on that piece? Should have mentioned that... lower leaf is 4-4.5 cm long Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Southard Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I don't have an answer but here is some food for thought: 1. Termite wings 2. Termites shedding wings 3. Termites: evolution, sociality, symbioses, ecology Good luck. Neat fossil! John S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 The robustness of the central vein says "plant" to me. Nevertheless, it should be noted that the forewing (tegmen) of cockroaches can have a fairly strong vein that runs close to the midpoint of the wing, unlike the majority of insects where the strong veins are located at the leading edge, to give the wing rigidity from it's articulation with the body out to the apex. Lots of line drawings of fossil and modern roach wings can be found here. And here is a fairly complete Carboniferous roach, showing a strong vein in the middle of the tegmen (image from here). For a definitive opinion, you should email Dr. David Grimaldi at the American Museum of Natural History. Also for anyone who has a real interest in fossil insects, I'd recommend picking up a copy of Evolution of the Insects, an excellent 2005 treatment of the topic by Grimaldi and Engel, published by Cambridge University Press. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 continuing with the 'If it were a wing, it would be more exciting' theme... I think John Southard is onto something good. The only problem with that particular organism is that they started out in the Triassic. However, I would suggest looking into other relatives to see if there was anything like that back then. Of course, it does seem more plant-like, but I'd suggest exhausting the insect possibilities first....if nothing else, just because that would be really cool. Good luck. . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 I don't have an answer but here is some food for thought: 1. Termite wings 2. Termites shedding wings 3. Termites: evolution, sociality, symbioses, ecology Thank you for the interesting links. Food for thought indeed, although I think the majority of people here is right that we're dealing with some sort of plant here. But what type...?!?! continuing with the 'If it were a wing, it would be more exciting' theme (...) Of course, it does seem more plant-like, but I'd suggest exhausting the insect possibilities first....if nothing else, just because that would be really cool. As I collect almost exclusively plant fossils, I seriously object to that statement - plants are just as cool! Today I sent an email to Prof. Dr. Carsten Brauckmann (Carboniferous insect expert in Germany) in the hope he could help me. When I have reaction, of course I will let you guys know the outcome. There seems to be a tendency to stop thinking when it doesn't turn out to be an insect: I'm interested in what type of plant it should be also, so if anybody has suggestions, please share! For a definitive opinion, you should email Dr. David Grimaldi at the American Museum of Natural History. Thank you for the reference. When I do not hear from Prof. Brauckmann, I'll definitely send him an email. Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyguy784 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) Agree, plants are just as cool. In fact, I'd rather have it turn out to be some rare/interesting plant. Please keep us abreast of any findings Tim. Edited March 14, 2011 by flyguy784 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtdog Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Since I have collected both the positive and the negative, please let me know when photo's of the negative might help a more detailed determination!Tim Hi Tim. The matching pair side-by-side like that makes one wonder whether there may be anything else stuck in that matrix that you may have overlooked that may help shed some extra light on this. If you hadn't yet done it, I'm saying, I'd be taking my focus off those "wings," and giving both those sides the old, well, "going over," real good. FWIW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 ...plants are just as cool!... Agree, plants are just as cool. In fact, I'd rather have it turn out to be some rare/interesting plant.... :lol: I certainly can't argue with that. Just because I'm more interested in Animalia than Plantae doesn't mean everyone is. Some of my closest paleo buddies here in Colorado are paleo botanists.....but I don't hold it against them . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Tim.... I Look forward to finding out what they are... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Hi all, I got a reply from Prof. Carsten Brauckmann this morning: The lacking subcosta probably are proof this is not an insect wing, which is a nice result as for now I have absolutely no clue on what kind of plant material this could be. Bruno, any thoughts? I'll send out some emails in the hope of getting an answer to the new question. Keep you posted! Edited April 2, 2011 by paleoflor Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Tim... The plot thickens!... what could it be Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) What would "extremely exotic" mean in this situation? Edited March 16, 2011 by Mr. Edonihce . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Although I'm leaning toward plant, I searched 'leaf-mimic insects'...hmmmmm. Check it out. I guess the question derived from that might be, Did insects evolve that far at that point? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziepe Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Hey Tim! As wrote previously on the Dutch forum I'm leaning towards the cockroach theory. And after reading this thread it seems I'm not the only one. I wouldn't say they are insect wings, although one would say at first sight your species could be some sort of genera under the Paleoptera of the late Carboniferous. The lack of subcosta could wipe this argument off the table. Interesting reading material on this matter by Dr. Carsten Brauckmann and Karl Josef Herd (in German): Insekten-Funde aus dem Westfalium D (Ober-Karbon) des Peisberges bei Osnabrück. Second option, plant-like material due to the dominant main vein and the oblong shape could be a possibility. But, we both been Carboniferous plant-collectors for far too long and this kind of leaf has never appeared in any of the literature or, even better, in-situ. So, my gutfeeling points at option #3: a cockroach or beetle-like bug. After some quick research you should check the following article: Insect biostratigraphy of the Euramerican continental Late Pennsylvanian and Early Permian (JOERG W. SCHNEIDER & RALF WERNEBURG) Check out the following genera: Moravamylacris, Sysciophlebia, Spiloblattina and Syscioblatta - perhaps we have a winner there! The plot thickens indeed! Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziepe Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 An interesting link on palaeozoic blattarian: http://www.metafysica.nl/wings/wings_3bb.html S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I have to register a wing mimic vote here as well. It would be exciting if it were a wing, certainly an undescribed type if found to be correct. One feature that also adds to the evidence as plant is a characteristic unmentioned thus far. Some of the smaller veins on Tim's fossil have terminations that form elliptical shapes. In two volumes of figured Paleozoic wing diagrams I can find no other example of an insect wing that presents this feature. All of the wings appear to have an "open" radiating venation from the proximal portion of the wing outward. If this assumption is correct it cannot be a wing. Do any of our entomology experts concur? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hey Tim! As wrote previously on the Dutch forum I'm leaning towards the cockroach theory. And after reading this thread it seems I'm not the only one. I wouldn't say they are insect wings, although one would say at first sight your species could be some sort of genera under the Paleoptera of the late Carboniferous. The lack of subcosta could wipe this argument off the table. Interesting reading material on this matter by Dr. Carsten Brauckmann and Karl Josef Herd (in German): Insekten-Funde aus dem Westfalium D (Ober-Karbon) des Peisberges bei Osnabrück. Second option, plant-like material due to the dominant main vein and the oblong shape could be a possibility. But, we both been Carboniferous plant-collectors for far too long and this kind of leaf has never appeared in any of the literature or, even better, in-situ. So, my gutfeeling points at option #3: a cockroach or beetle-like bug. After some quick research you should check the following article: Insect biostratigraphy of the Euramerican continental Late Pennsylvanian and Early Permian (JOERG W. SCHNEIDER & RALF WERNEBURG) Check out the following genera: Moravamylacris, Sysciophlebia, Spiloblattina and Syscioblatta - perhaps we have a winner there! The plot thickens indeed! Sven I have to register a wing mimic vote here as well. It would be exciting if it were a wing, certainly an undescribed type if found to be correct. One feature that also adds to the evidence as plant is a characteristic unmentioned thus far. Some of the smaller veins on Tim's fossil have terminations that form elliptical shapes. In two volumes of figured Paleozoic wing diagrams I can find no other example of an insect wing that presents this feature. All of the wings appear to have an "open" radiating venation from the proximal portion of the wing outward. If this assumption is correct it cannot be a wing. Do any of our entomology experts concur? This is great! I love watching this channel. Ya know what, I work with some entomologists at CU-Boulder. I don't know how broad their exposure is to paleo-entomology, but I guess I could send this link their way and see if they have anything to add. We'll see... . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 It would be interesting to see any reconstructions of these insects Sven mentions if anyone has any... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziepe Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 It would be interesting to see any reconstructions of these insects Sven mentions if anyone has any... The SCHNEIDER & WERNEBURG article can be (freely) downloaded here: http://fossilinsects.net/pdfs/Schneider_Werneburg_2006_InsectBiostratigraphyEuramerica.pdf It features some very interesting graphs and wing-reconstructions. I only have a print-out version of the other article (on the Paleoptera of Piesberg, Germany). I'll try scanning the most important reconstructions and upload them to this thread. (maybe this weekend) Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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