cowsharks Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I came across this article today (Sea Urchin Teeth) while looking for something else. I was amazed to learn that some sea urchins have teeth. I immediately thought of all the urchins (echinoids) that many collectors post here on TFF and got me wondering if anyone has ever found a fossil urchin with the teeth still in it? That would be really neat. My guess is that the teeth probably didn't fossilize or if they did, maybe fell out of the mouth. Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 An urchin's chewing organ is called Aristotle's lantern, and contain five calcium carbonate teeth or jaws. They can be found with the urchin, or loose. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I had always understood that even in well preserved urchins they are commonly lost quickly after death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Are the teeth ever found as fossils? They are amazing in that they self-sharpen and never lose them! The urchin can even bore into stone and the teeth never get dull. Take that Ginsu knife! Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Don't think teeth like shark's teeth; they are plates of calcium carbonate, and "grow" as needed. I have seen (displayed on the Forum) a seafloor hash plate with some tooth plates in it. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Here are some examples of urchin teeth. These were found in the Eocene Castle Hayne Formation and are most likely from Cidaris pratti. These are called hemipyramids. Two hemipyramids together form a pyramid (tooth). Five of the pyramids form the Aristotle's latern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Don't think teeth like shark's teeth.... Too late Chas, I can't help it....Hello everyone, my name Is Daryl, and I'm addicted to shark teeth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Here are some examples of urchin teeth. These were found in the Eocene Castle Hayne Formation and are most likely from Cidaris pratti. These are called hemipyramids. Two hemipyramids together form a pyramid (tooth). Five of the pyramids form the Aristotle's latern. Thanks AL Dente. Those look really cool. I'm guessing those are around 5 to 10mm in length? Interesting to think how they would interlock together to form the tooth and jaw set of Aristotle's lantern. Cool stuff. Once again, I learned something new today. Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Al Dente, your pic shows pieces of a Lanterne d'Aristote (name given to the mouth of sea urchins), but not really the teeth. I think I have pics of sea urchin teeth, but they are not good. I have to do them again. And today TFF is so long to download... Regular sea urchins have teeth, but Clypeaster too for example. I know an example of place where sea urchins preserved their teeth, I am going to make photos for you. Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Al Dente, your pic shows pieces of a Lanterne d'Aristote (name given to the mouth of sea urchins), but not really the teeth. I think I have pics of sea urchin teeth, but they are not good. I have to do them again. And today TFF is so long to download... Regular sea urchins have teeth, but Clypeaster too for example. I know an example of place where sea urchins preserved their teeth, I am going to make photos for you. Coco Coco Thanks for the correction. I look forward to your photos. And yes, TFF is very slow today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 TFF works better now. Here are my first pics, from an Echinometra mathaei from Reunion Island. On the first one, it is the lower part of the sea urchin wich is cut. You can see what we call "Aristote's lantern" (and also on the second pic) On this one, you can see inside the sea urchin, seen by the top Here is the peristom of the sea urchin (seen by the bottom). We can perceive the 5 teeth which go out of the mouth, in the center of the photo. And now, two whole Echinometra mathaei, because it exists in two different colour ! It isn't the subject of this post, but this last sea urchins has a particularity : its spines were broken, and they are pushing away. As soon as the conditions of natural lighting and as soon as I would have time, I am going to make photos of teeth, taken out of the mouth (do not worry, the cut spéciment presented at the beginning of my message will so stay! I am going to take teeth fallen from a jaw). Goodbye Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dromiopsis Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 hello! There's a place in France(east) where there's a lot of regular sea urchins with sometime, you got "lanterne d'Aristote in place" Acrosalenia hemicidaroides var. Bradfordensis of the middleJurassic, Bajocian periode close up on the "lanterne d'aristote" sea urchins around 1 cm more plus one example with spine on place and blocs laying outside my house...for lazy and natural cleaning D Gallery pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/supergrevling/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Dromiopsis, it is exactly the fossil sea urchins from this area I thought when I told that some of them conserved their Aristote's lantern ! You were faster than me to put your photos of these sea urchins Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 hello! There's a place in France(east) where there's a lot of regular sea urchins with sometime, you got "lanterne d'Aristote in place" Acrosalenia hemicidaroides var. Bradfordensis of the middleJurassic, Bajocian periode ... 'Dromiosis', Do you recognize the formation name on my label here? Would this be Bajocian in age? http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dromiopsis Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 'Dromiosis', Do you recognize the formation name on my label here? Would this be Bajocian in age? Hello, Argovian is a périod(160MY) of the Oxfordian, relative of the rocks we can find in Argovia canton in switzerland, upper Jurassic, Bajocian(Dogger, Medium Jurassi) is older(178MY) D Gallery pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/supergrevling/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hello, Argovian is a périod(160MY) of the Oxfordian, relative of the rocks we can find in Argovia canton in switzerland, upper Jurassic, Bajocian(Dogger, Medium Jurassi) is older(178MY) D Here's what I found on the Internet: The Sub-alpine domain in south-eastern France was located on the proximal part of the South-European Tethys margin. it includes the Dauphinois basin which is characterised by relatively high rates of subsidence during Jurassic and Early Cretaceous times. Monotonous black shales - the so-called Terres Noires - were deposited under considerable thicknesses from Late Bathonian to Early Oxfordian limes. The subsiding part was bordered by carbonate platforms which were limited by a net of extensional or strike-slip faults. The western border of the basin on the Massif central side was determined by steep fault scarps. On the other hand, the eastern side was a long and gentle submarine slope that separated the Digne basin from the Provence platform in the Nice area. The time span studied here extends on the duration of two second-order transgressive/regressive cycles sensu Vail. dated as early Late Bathonian to early Late Oxfordian. This corresponds to the deposition of the Terres Noires and of alternating calcareous mudstones and shales known as "Argovian Formation". These two second-order cycle can be subdivided into 16 third-order depositional sequences. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dromiopsis Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Here's what I found on the Internet: The Sub-alpine domain in south-eastern France was located on the proximal part of the South-European Tethys margin. it includes the Dauphinois basin which is characterised by relatively high rates of subsidence during Jurassic and Early Cretaceous times. Monotonous black shales - the so-called Terres Noires - were deposited under considerable thicknesses from Late Bathonian to Early Oxfordian limes. The subsiding part was bordered by carbonate platforms which were limited by a net of extensional or strike-slip faults. The western border of the basin on the Massif central side was determined by steep fault scarps. On the other hand, the eastern side was a long and gentle submarine slope that separated the Digne basin from the Provence platform in the Nice area. The time span studied here extends on the duration of two second-order transgressive/regressive cycles sensu Vail. dated as early Late Bathonian to early Late Oxfordian. This corresponds to the deposition of the Terres Noires and of alternating calcareous mudstones and shales known as "Argovian Formation". These two second-order cycle can be subdivided into 16 third-order depositional sequences. Hello, Argovian is a geological word use here for the beginning of oxfordian period...we call too, the "Birsmensdorf layer" , level rich in sponges and ammonites genus Perisphinctes. Apparently, late Bathonian is included but I am not a specialist of this old stratigraphy... in attach, best layer of Argovian in the French Jura. with raw ammonites and a big sponge Christian Gallery pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/supergrevling/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Here's a modern example of an urchin's"teeth ". This is from an Arbacia that I pulled apart a while back. One piece has a hemipyramid with the tooth intact. The other is just a tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexx Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Here's a picture of a recent sea urchin that I found in shallow waters in Kenya. I was surprised as well that they have teeth. Didn't know that they have the fancy name Aristotle's lantern though. Thanks for letting me know Auspex! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 Folks, thanks so much for all the amazing pictures and information! I've learned a lot more about urchins, that's for sure. Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Hi, Al Dente, you was faster than me... Here is teeth of a recent Stomopneustes variolaris from Reunion Island. To the left, we see the outside side of the tooth (convex), in the center the internal side (with a furrow from top to bottom) and to the right its profile. Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB88 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Heres one from the Mississippian the pieces of Aristotle's Lantern are in the middle dis-articulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeR Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) I saw this at the Sedgwick Museum of Earth Science in Cambridge UK this week and I remembered this thread. Sorry for the blurriness as I took it with my iphone. Mike Cidaris smithii Wright, Jurassic Coral Rag, Headington, UK. Edited August 20, 2011 by MikeR "A problem solved is a problem caused"--Karl Pilkington "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." -- Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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