PaleoTerra Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 http://cgi.ebay.com/FOSSIL-DINOSAUR-GALLIMIMUS-COMPLETE-FOOT-CLAW-MONGOLIA-/230650381615?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b3d5852f Thought it was illegal to sell dinosaur fossils from Mongolia, especially articulated bones! Anybody know exactly what the laws are regarding Mongolian fossils? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 It is not illegal in the US to sell, or buy, Mongolian fossils once they are here. How it was removed from Mongolia might have violated Mongolian law; it is possible that some of the Mongolian material for sale is from older collections, and were exported before the laws were passed. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Under advice of council, I wish to add that the only way to navigate the legal minefield (besides not setting foot in it) is to become fully educated on all the applicable laws and treaties (an impossible task, because said laws are continuously updated and reinterpreted). Don't get your legal advice on-line! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinopaleus Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 if this articulated foot arrived to the U.S before the chinese law banned exporting of vertebrate or important fossils, which was a while ago, then i believe you are safe. however, if it was shipped over after the law was made, you have violated the law, which is a big no no. to my understanding, even if it arrived in the u.s, you are still dealing with an item in which has trespassed a certain line. if you own that item, then you hold the responsibility for dealing with the problem. however, this isn't necessarily true for fossils from old collections. i wish you the best of luck in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleoTerra Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 Thank you for the info Auspex and fossil maniac! I wasn't going to purchase this fossil since well, if I had like four grand to drop on a fossil, I would probably be in the Hell Creek formation looking for my own! lol I just ran across it and was wondering if someone would really be that bold as to sell something like that on eBay if it were totally illegal to possess! It is a beautiful fossil tho that I certainly wouldn't mind having! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinopaleus Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Thank you for the info Auspex and fossil maniac! I wasn't going to purchase this fossil since well, if I had like four grand to drop on a fossil, I would probably be in the Hell Creek formation looking for my own! lol I just ran across it and was wondering if someone would really be that bold as to sell something like that on eBay if it were totally illegal to possess! It is a beautiful fossil tho that I certainly wouldn't mind having! that's good. some people are still oblivious to the fact that it is illegal, so hopefully sooner or later they will discover the truth. however, i won't forgive people who ignore the law even if they know of it's presence. people like that are just selfish and troublesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Does anyone have an idea what the description means when it says "used"? Used for what? A back-scratcher? It was certainly used by the dinosaur. What an odd descriptive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleoTerra Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Does anyone have an idea what the description means when it says "used"? Used for what? A back-scratcher? It was certainly used by the dinosaur. What an odd descriptive! LOL, I agree, that was a little odd! Is a fossil ever considered new? Also, I noticed there wasn't any information on when, where, or how it was acquired. nor stating whether or not it was a legally obtained piece! That's why I was a little concerned about it's legality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) At least smuggling fossils out of Cina is very risky. Only recently in 2010, the Supreme Court has announced that the death penalty for "Excavating and robbing fossils of paleo anthropoids or paleo vertebrates" will be abolished. A slight improvement but Chinese jails still are very unpleasant places. http://www.chinafric...tent_302681.htm Thomas Edited July 25, 2011 by oilshale Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead9 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 My understanding of the law is that we have no agreements with China such as we have with Argentina and Chile, thus making even fossils taken out of China illegally, legal to buy, sell or possess in this country. I am not advocating this practice and there are instances in which you could still have problems. If a fossil is shipped to this country and goes through customs with a declaration of anything other than a fossil, it is in violation of US customs regulations. The large oviraptor nest with embryos which sold for half a million at auction here several years ago was seized under this pretense. This how Chinese fossils are still sold openly at fossil shows while South American specimens are gone. Then again, I'm not a lawyer! Still Life Fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I think one thing that needs to really be found out since so many people are bringing up China; are we talking about it coming from the Mongolia region of China or the independent country of Mongolia. Both countries have different rules and regulations and our treaties with each differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I think one thing that needs to really be found out since so many people are bringing up China; are we talking about it coming from the Mongolia region of China or the independent country of Mongolia. Both countries have different rules and regulations and our treaties with each differ. I agree... and a little bit shocked that no one caught this sooner. The laws in China have nothing to do with Mongolia. Inner Mongolia is part of China, what used to be called Outer Mongolia (I'm not sure if that was ever its real name), is a separate country called Mongolia. Both have wonderful fossil resources, both have laws against these fossil leaving the country. As auspex mentioned, the US has no laws against selling stuff that was illegally exported from countries we like, as long as that stuff is legal to own in the US of A. I do not believe that an American who "owns" illegally exported stuff can be held responsible, beyond the point of confiscation and repatriation if it ever comes to that. But then, again as aupex says... don't get your legal advice online, and certainly not from me. But I did do some research on this topic when our museum was offered a large local collection that was full of fossils from Brazil, China and other No Export countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinopaleus Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 (edited) I agree... and a little bit shocked that no one caught this sooner. The laws in China have nothing to do with Mongolia. Inner Mongolia is part of China, what used to be called Outer Mongolia (I'm not sure if that was ever its real name), is a separate country called Mongolia. Both have wonderful fossil resources, both have laws against these fossil leaving the country. As auspex mentioned, the US has no laws against selling stuff that was illegally exported from countries we like, as long as that stuff is legal to own in the US of A. I do not believe that an American who "owns" illegally exported stuff can be held responsible, beyond the point of confiscation and repatriation if it ever comes to that. But then, again as aupex says... don't get your legal advice online, and certainly not from me. But I did do some research on this topic when our museum was offered a large local collection that was full of fossils from Brazil, China and other No Export countries. that's a very good point there about outer and inner mongolia jpc. everything also depends on if the fossil's from within china or outside of china aka. outer mongolia, after all, the rules might differ. the rules for o.mongolian fossils are completely alien to me, but since that i.mongolia is one of china's many provinces, the rules are the exact same as every other province. therefore, there is insufficient information given to reach a conclusion. however, i understand the way many honest chinese fossil collectors/dealers think. most believe that fossils from china are our nations best mysteries and wonders, even treasures. to sell the fossils outside of china for self benefits, it would be like draining the soul of the sleeping dragon, or what makes up china. selling it inside of china to other chinese citizens would be like sharing knowledge of our country's past. so to answer your question, is this legal? there is not enough information, BUT, if this was from i.mongolia, and if it was snuck out of china after the law was made, it is not legal. it is illegal, from china's view. Edited July 26, 2011 by fossil maniac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I agree... and a little bit shocked that no one caught this sooner. The laws in China have nothing to do with Mongolia. Inner Mongolia is part of China, what used to be called Outer Mongolia (I'm not sure if that was ever its real name), is a separate country called Mongolia. Both have wonderful fossil resources, both have laws against these fossil leaving the country. As auspex mentioned, the US has no laws against selling stuff that was illegally exported from countries we like, as long as that stuff is legal to own in the US of A. I do not believe that an American who "owns" illegally exported stuff can be held responsible, beyond the point of confiscation and repatriation if it ever comes to that. But then, again as aupex says... don't get your legal advice online, and certainly not from me. But I did do some research on this topic when our museum was offered a large local collection that was full of fossils from Brazil, China and other No Export countries. So was I. It seems a lot of people still think Outer Mongolia is part of China and do not realize it is an independent country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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