Potentially 30,000 Year Old Mastadon Rib Bow

[ermackey]

I work for the University of Alaska and had a person come in from a rural arctic village with a Mastodon Rib Bone that appears to have been carved into a bow. This is the important part - the carvings appear to have been done by the hunter who killed the animal. The bone is carved so an arrow can rest in the bone notch. There are carvings and niches to tie the bow string. The local Park Service Anthropologist eyeballed it as 20k - 30k years old, but lacks the instruments to verify. The person is looking to sell the bow and wants a value and advice on how to sell it. In the meantime, I am trying to find a local UAF Archaeologist to verify age and authenticity.

I will post more pics later.

Edited September 24, 2011 by ermackey

[Auspex]

Radiometric dating is going to be important on this one.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

The bow and arrow hasn't been in use nearly that long, not to rob the great find of any significance.

[Sharkbyte]

I agree with danwoehr. For the entire story to be true is impossible but we are talking about Alaska and could there be a remote possibility that it is whale bone of a much much younger age. Still very hard to believe. First, I can't imagine getting the functionality from bone that you can from wood that it would need for it to be an effective weapon. An artifact like this would blow the top off the rarity charts. Auspex is also totaly correct. An artifact like this would have to be verified by scientific means more than just people looking at it. There are so many counterfeit fossils, artifacts, relics, and antiques these days because of new technology and mastered skills perfected because of the value and market for these type of finds. I am not calling anyone a liar, I hope there is some level of authenticity to this claim and I am looking forward to seeing the pictures and seeing how this pans out.

The bow and arrow hasn't been in use nearly that long, not to rob the great find of any significance.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Sharkbyte

[JohnJ]

I agree with the others regarding its use as a bow and this forum wouldn't be where to seek advice on how to sell it. However, you might contact Molly Lee; she is the curator of ethnology at the University of Alaska Museum and professor of anthropology at the University of Alaska Fairbanks for some opinions regarding authenticity.

[Indy]

Looking forward to seeing the pictures :pic:

[Ramo]

Don't take this wrong, but

1. This is your first post.

B. They used atl-atls to hunt mammoth not bows

3. No photos

C. You are looking to see what your artifact is worth.

Sorry, but my BS Meter is pegged out on this claim!!!

Ramo

[Auspex]

Don't take this wrong, but

1. This is your first post.

B. They used atl-atls to hunt mammoth not bows

3. No photos

C. You are looking to see what your artifact is worth.

Sorry, but my BS Meter is pegged out on this claim!!!

Ramo

Give him a chance; I researched a bit, and he is who he says he is.

[Ramo]

I hope he proves me wrong!!

It's just that we have all seen a quite a few extraordinary claims on here from new people, and very little extraordinary proof. Usually those people pop on here for one or two posts, and then disappear.

I've made a few bows, (although never from a mammoth rib), but I don't think a rib would make a great bow. Granted I doubt there are many trees up there.

In Africa they make bows of all types of wood, and I've even seen gemsbok horn bows, but I've never heard of a bow made of bone.

Ramo

[Auspex]

We know there's a temporal problem with the hypothesis: 30K YBP is over 20K years too old for a bow. Either the date or the interpretation is in error, or a hoax has been perpetrated. I'm hoping for really good pictures .

[ermackey]

I just uploaed the first pic. Will upload more in a few minutes. I have to reduce the files.

[xonenine]

I could concieve creating an ornamental piece out of an impractical material, I have made many carvings that were impractical materials if they were to be used.Regardless, it is a very interesting piece, welcome to the forum.

[ashcraft]

bows can be made out of many things-including bones and antlers. They do, however, require a backing material. I have a book showing how bows were made out of sheeps horns.

Everybody is also assuming that the bone and the bow are the same age. I don't think you can make that assumption. People in Siberia feed maamoth meat to their dogs, and I believe Rockefeller fed mammoth meat to his guests.

The point is, they are still nearly in the same condition as to when they died, even though carbon dating would show them to be +10,000 years old.

It is a fascinating find, and I will open the bid at $1, heck I'll go $2.

Waiting for more information,

Brent Ashcraft

[Sharkbyte]

Hello Ermackey,

Very nice to have a picture posted. It lends a lot to the credability of certain aspects of the belief. It does look like a rib bone with man made tally marks and I am very glad that at least in the early stages, it appears that we can assume someone really believed they found a Mammoth Rib Bow. Hard to base an opinion on a picture but at least we can see evidence of what the owner feels he has. I don't have a problem with it being a Fossil and an Artifact but I can't for the life of me imagine that it would have been effective. Who knows though, there was a time when people thought we would never put a Man on the Moon and now we are past that and in the thinking stages of how to put a Man on Mars. I really appreciate the pictures and I hope beyond all hope that this is proven to be legitimate. Like Brent said. The rib could be mammoth and found thousands of years after the Mammoths went extinct and still be used during the time of the Bow and Arrow. Still going to take a lot of convincing that it could effectivly function as a bow. Thanks for such a very interesting posting. At least to me.

Bobby

[Cole]

bows can be made out of many things-including bones and antlers. They do, however, require a backing material. I have a book showing how bows were made out of sheeps horns.

Everybody is also assuming that the bone and the bow are the same age. I don't think you can make that assumption. People in Siberia feed maamoth meat to their dogs, and I believe Rockefeller fed mammoth meat to his guests.

The point is, they are still nearly in the same condition as to when they died, even though carbon dating would show them to be +10,000 years old.

It is a fascinating find, and I will open the bid at $1, heck I'll go $2.

Waiting for more information,

Brent Ashcraft

Very interesting stuff. I also think the bow could have been made thousands of years after the animal died. I did some research on bow and arrows and arrows preceeded bows by a long shot. 64,000 years people have been making arrows. But the first bow appeared around 18,000 years ago. There is a period in between where potentially someone in an isolated area could have first invented the bow before our records show it existed. The entire arctic area is definately isolated. My guess is that this bow is no older than 20,000 years, but likely more than 4,000 years old.

You can go to this artifact forum to get answers from a crowd who specializes in native tools.

Good luck,

Cole~

[ermackey]

This is the center part of the bow/rib. Notice that the outside part of the rig has been carved down. It is extremely smooth and seems to be part of the hand grip. I am not sure why the niches are there.

Already posted this, but I give my foot for scale.

Both ends have the same niches. To keep the sting from slipping? There is also a node at the end that serves as a good tie-off.

This profile shows the curvature very well. . It is also noteworthy that this rib bone is more flexible that it appears. Not as flexible as wood, but it does have some slight flex even post fossilization.

Sorry for the quality. The camera sucks and I had serious autofocus problems. The native person who found it is securing it, so I will not have any more access to it for a while - if ever. I have offered to help him, but he has well-reasoned suspicions. I am still trying to get him to allow me to take it to Fairbanks for analysis at UAF.

Also, I am not trying to sell it. The persona asked if I would try to help him identify and validate the find so he could sell it. He also offered it to NANA Native Corporation and they advised him to sell it. They said it was worth more than they could pay.

I am not an expert in this field. Collecting fossils is a hobby of mine. Therefore, I am just trying to help this guy out and get some experts to view and study it before it gets sold to a visiting hunter or local collector - never to be seen again.

[Sharkbyte]

Great story and glad to see that you are trying to help him. If it turns out to be what he believes it is then it would be far better off in a public museum for all to see and enjoy as opposed to being hidden in a private collection. Good job.

Bobby

[Sharkbyte]

I like this. Very well put. Thank you Auspex.

Give him a chance; I researched a bit, and he is who he says he is.

[Auspex]

It may have been used for something (and just because it "fits the hand" doesn't necessarily mean it was), but I can't imagine it would have been a very effective bow, and if the marks were meant to retain a bowstring, I think they would have been much deeper, and encircling. I'm trying to envision what use it might have been put to.

Also, who identified it as a Mastodon rib? Are there other candidates?

I think it is plenty cool, BTW!

[ermackey]

It may have been used for something (and just because it "fits the hand" doesn't necessarily mean it was), but I can't imagine it would have been a very effective bow, and if the marks were meant to retain a bowstring, I think they would have been much deeper, and encircling. I'm trying to envision what use it might have been put to.

Also, who identified it as a Mastodon rib? Are there other candidates?

I think it is plenty cool, BTW!

Thanks. The "bow" theory is based purely on first impression at this point. When you hold it, it feels like a bow. The weight is very even and it is not as heavy as you would think. However, I realize that it could be a tool used for something else. That is why I wanted to photograph it. I have never seen anything like it. Also, I am not a trained professional in the field. I am a political scientist who has an interest in the field as a hobby.

The bone was identified as a Mastodon rib by one of the wildlife biologists at the Noatak National Preserve in Kotzebue, Alaska.

[ermackey]

maybe it was used to haul/pull a net?

[ashcraft]

From "Native American Bows", Missouri Archaeological Society Publications #5

"Aside from the fact that the Eskimos made bows of driftwood and sinew-and antler and even bone when driftwood was not available- their genius lay in using a free sinew back in which tension could be readily adjusted to meet varying conditions of humidity".

It appears that the people who made these bows used what they could find. So a large rib found while scoring the countryside for whatever would certainly fill the bill, and when backed with sinew, would have been a potnetially fine weapon.

I think that you may be holding the bow backwards, as it was probably a reflex style weapon.

I am no expert, and looking at photos is not a specialty of mine, but I would CONJECTURE that it is an actual bow, but the age of the bone does not necessarily correlate to when the bow was made.

Whatever the case, it is an amazing find, I hope it can be kept in the public domain.

Brent Ashcraft

[Texas-Tunnel Rat]

I still think that it would be interesting that a 30k Rib-Bow would be made.

I mean when you think about it a longbow with these materials may be better than what was around at the time.

thought this might come in handy

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/39857/Longbow-vs-Shortbow now shortbows I think may be just standard bows vs this "Mammoth rib" variant. More horsepower.

Just obersavations and ideas someone on here might be better at this. Id say get it checked out.

[ashcraft]

Here are a couple of photos dealing with Eskimo bows.

[ermackey]

My amateur knowledge is that the Mongols used a short-bow. I agree, this would have to be a short bow. I doubt the bone would take the flexing of a reflex bow.

With Mongols in mind, look at the location where this was found. location of bow