BisonJim Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I thought this might be off topic, but since we talk about pack hunting of dinos, feathers, etc. I figured I could toss out my two cents on this issue. Like the pack hunting thread, I figured this might be a good topic for discussion where I might learn something. Contrary to to scientific, expert opinion, I don't think brain size, objective or relative, has anything to do with intelligence. I know this intuitively and cannot back it up. I've had a great number of anecdotal "experiences" with animals which demonstrate, to me, a depth of knowledge and awareness far beyond what we call "instinct." Indeed, it seems there may be an inverse relationship between size and intelligence, with a larger brain being required to make up for a lack of intelligence. While I would be prepared to stipulate to the opposition's definition of certain terms, like "intelligence", before going down a long and winding road of discussion, I reckon the meaning of some other subjective terms, like "success" and "need" and "desire" would have to be agreed upon. And, more importantly, an acute awareness of one's proclivity for anthropomorphism would be required for self-checking before comment. I could be wrong about that, but I see it digressing the progression of an otherwise good discussion if it's not closely watched. I can just see folks thinking that because we perceive ourselves as intelligent and because we perceive "success" and "need" and "desire" to be X, then anything which does not perceive them as X is proof of inferior intelligence. In other words, "If you don't think like me, or agree with me, you are not as intelligent as me." Would then my brain be larger than yours and would relative brain size be proof of my case? Could we settle all arguments that way? Of course not. Some might think that where animals "agree", it must be instinct, fluke, or proof of a lack of intelligence (i.e. "If they're so smart, why would they let us kill them. We "live" more and "better" and "longer" and can do with them as we will, and we can go to outer space, and if they were smart they would be here in this conversation defending their intelligence, etc, but they're not.; ergo we are more intelligent and our relative brain size is the reason.") So animals can't win for losing: If they "disagree" with us on our subjective perceptions, it's proof of inferior intelligence; if they "agree" it's attributable to something other than intelligence. Personally, I think a bird brain is extremely intelligent, and what we perceive as their inability to prove it to us is the height of arrogance, proof of our inferior intelligence, and a failure of burdens of proof, all going back to the issue of "need" and "desire" and "success." If we were smarter, we could understand them, and why they "let" us do as we will with them. As it is, they are patient with us; not laughing; no pity; just watching us grow and waiting; wanting to help but knowing the best way to do that is to let evolution chisel us as we chisel it. (Side digression: Neanderthal had a larger brain but was less "successful" so we say, well, that size issue was attributable to a certain portion of the brain that was not necessarily related to "intelligence." And if some species has a larger brain, it's not larger relative to body size, or again, it's larger to run different parts of the body that we don't have, etc. Hmmmm. How convenient. We always have an excuse. We always move the ball. We always "win." That means we are more intelligent.) Okay, no more coffee for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Not the size that counts but rather the microstructure of # micro neural connections and the way the cells are put together under direct genetic control of a given species..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Hard to quantify "intelligence" in other than anthropomorphic terms... Most extant creatures possess the neurological tools needed for fitness within their niche; those that don't, or who lack adaptability when their niche changes, usually exit the gene pool in short order. How smart does a cockroach need to be? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Men have bigger brains than women. You can make your own conclusions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOSECSV Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Men have bigger brains than women. You can make your own conclusions.... Yes But women have a lot of connections between the two hemispheres and men have a few ones in comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I think many people confuse intelligence with cognitive ability. Very few animals are smart enough to figure out how to open a peanut butter jar. Primates and octopus as far as I know. Most can't even figure out to smash it to get at the contents. If they are taught, then they can do it. I am not intelligent enough to build an expansion bridge using mine and other bodies, like ants do, but I can sure figure out a way to get across that creek. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 when a topic starts out with "i thought this might be off topic...", it probably is. so i thought it might be...wait for it...prudent...(thought i was gonna say "intelligent", didn't you)...to post some basicranium and braincase photos, kinda like fossil tapdancing til the band stops playin' on this deal... from my study of phrenology, i've concluded that this cow was a criminal. but the comment was rhetorical and not intended to engender discussion of bovine sociopathy. i'm a fossil kinda guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 i've concluded that this cow was a criminal. but the comment was rhetorical and not intended to engender discussion of bovine sociopathy. i'm a fossil kinda guy... Nothing worse then beef gone bad. It can really cause a tummy ache.......(burp). ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xonenine Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) in the majority of cases where you compare apples to apples, or degree of intelligence within a species, encephalization does matter, particularly in early development.The most important aspect to me would be processing speed, and optimization of pathways - that optimization would also be largely affected by size and layout/architecture. of course, if you want to approach this in the broadest sense, I'd agree w you - using vehicles as an analogy.There are so many vehicle designs, cars, tanks, tractors, ultralights..and on and on.None of these is a better designed vehicle overall, or functions more efficiently overall - they are each designed to be most effective for the tasks. Edited November 12, 2011 by xonenine "Your serpent of Egypt is bred now of your mud by the operation of your sun; so is your crocodile." Lepidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 birds are some of the most intelligent animals, just look up crow intelligence. But since we cannot test a celophysis in the same way I think that brain size may be the best test we have. Within a genera larger brain/body ratios correlate to greater " intelligence " We really have trouble defining and measuring intelligence even in living humans, so when trying to define it in exinct creatures,look out! I think the largest human crainial capacity was in Cro-Magnons and I am fully ready to admit that a people that invented atlatl's, and realistic cave paintings were more intelligent than we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xonenine Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 and there are many things that correlate to the topic that are fascinating.For me, the amount of processing used by senses and sensory organs, and speculation on it, as in the case of pterosaurs using skin for flight information, it is a great topic, and the trade offs to specialize for what each species needed to do to adapt to its niche is endlessly interesting as well... "Your serpent of Egypt is bred now of your mud by the operation of your sun; so is your crocodile." Lepidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Capacity for processing sensory input? At the base of every flight and contour feather on a bird are small bristle-plumes, touching the feather shaft. The bristle-plumes are each anchored in a dense concentration of nerve endings that transmit, in real time, their data to the brain. A bird in flight "feels" the air pressure, continuously, on every feather, and is constantly adapting to these inputs. I don't think we have the technology to do that... "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 yea just look at the olfactory bulbs on a T Rex. they had quite high "smell intellegence"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xonenine Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 dolphin language is probably a better faster language to transmit more data, I'm really glad everyone doesnt walk around talking like that tho, I'd find it annoying. "Your serpent of Egypt is bred now of your mud by the operation of your sun; so is your crocodile." Lepidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 From personal observations: Blue Jays employ different alarm calls for different threats: "Hawk!", "Snake!", "Cat!"....other birds pay attention to these warnings. I have watched as a lone Blue Jay, intent on visiting a busy feeder (but perhaps intimidated by the crowd), yelled "HAWK", then came sauntering in to help himself to the now vacant feeder. That's right, some birds tell lies for personal gain! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xonenine Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 From personal observations: Blue Jays employ different alarm calls for different threats: "Hawk!", "Snake!", "Cat!"....other birds pay attention to these warnings. I have watched as a lone Blue Jay, intent on visiting a busy feeder (but perhaps intimidated by the crowd), yelled "HAWK", then came sauntering in to help himself to the now vacant feeder. That's right, some birds tell lies for personal gain! "those are the most interesting things I've learned today!", he enthused, hoping to prod another amazing avian factoid from Chas... "Your serpent of Egypt is bred now of your mud by the operation of your sun; so is your crocodile." Lepidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 "those are the most interesting things I've learned today!", he enthused, hoping to prod another amazing avian factoid from Chas... No charge! : Caledonian Crows have been observed using simple tools, modifying tools to make them work better, making a tool to retrieve another tool that was otherwise inaccessible, and teaching another to do all of the above. This, I think, reveals some level of cognition among this most "intelligent" family, the Corvidae. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xonenine Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 awesome, I had to go watch a few crow videos after that... "Your serpent of Egypt is bred now of your mud by the operation of your sun; so is your crocodile." Lepidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BisonJim Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 I could tell you amazing stories but it would be at the risk of what little credibility I have on this forum, which I'm sure is not much. Though any one here who has seen "it" knows what I'm talking about. Thanks for all the responses thus far. I'm holding counsel and learning much at this point. Again, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMNH Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) That's right, some birds tell lies for personal gain! Squirrels burry fake nuts all over the place to confuse other squirrels. Then they sneak off somewhere to burry the real thing. I also noticed my pet gerbil used to pretend to hide her food in one box, then put it in another one when she thought I wasn't looking. Also, on a different note, elephants have been known mourn for their dead relatives. http://animal.discovery.com/news/briefs/20051031/elephant.html Edited November 13, 2011 by TMNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now