Missourian Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I'm hoping some Paleozoic fish fans can help with this one.... I picked this 'fish' up several years back: The fossil is in a limestone concretion that came from shale. There are also gastropods embedded in the rock on the back side. A close-up of the 'head': The other side of the concretion, with scale: Full resolution, showing spongy bone or cartilage along bottom edge: I used a magnifier but was unable to spot any teeth. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Killer fossil is it Pennsylvanian? Based on the flurry of possible fish skulls posted recently... including Roz's spectacular find...It sure has a familiar shape. I have never found one and fish skulls are outside my area of expertise...Here's hoping the Pro's ID it as fish Edited November 28, 2011 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Pennsylv Killer fossil is it Pennsylvanian? Based on the flurry of possible fish skulls posted recently... including Roz's spectacular find...It sure has a familiar shape. I have never found one and fish skulls are outside my area of expertise...Here's hoping the Pro's ID it as fish Pennsylvanian yes. To be exact, it came from the Quivira Shale in the Kansas City Group. There is a Pennsylvanian pointy-head fish in Gerald Case's book 'A Pictorial Guide to Fossils' (which I don't have with me right now) that looks like it, but the resemblance is probably just superficial. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Pennsylvanian yes. To be exact, it came from the Quivira Shale in the Kansas City Group. There is a Pennsylvanian pointy-head fish in Gerald Case's book 'A Pictorial Guide to Fossils' (which I don't have with me right now) that looks like it, but the resemblance is probably just superficial. Perhaps John Maisey or Mike Everhart could evaluate the images of this specimen? Both have been very accommodating and graciously assisting with fish IDs here at TFF. Worth a shot anyway and I'd really be interested in what the paleoichthyology experts have to say about your fantastic fossil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB88 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Perhaps John Maisey or Mike Everhart could evaluate the images of this specimen? Both have been very accommodating and graciously assisting with fish IDs here at TFF. Worth a shot anyway and I'd really be interested in what the paleoichthyology experts have to say about your fantastic fossil... I had no luck with John Maisey. My question is how do you know that's the head? It could be the heterocercal tail ofa paleoniscoidfish. Which would still be a fantastic find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Missourian....Nice find and sorry I cant help with the ID...I can see where Jim is coming from with a tail section but I cant be sure... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) That's why I put 'head' in tick marks. Calling it 'head' sounds better than 'tail' or 'pointy thing'. The individual bones that I can make out look more like skull pieces. I marked the bones here: The lines mark edges. Solid = clear edges. Dashed = possibly broken edges. The shaded areas mark bone that appear to be continuous (though crushed in some cases). Edited November 29, 2011 by Missourian Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Missourian....Yep...I can see the shapes and thats what the ID basically becomes a shape recognition exercise as the fish skulls were made up of many different shaped bony plates... If you recognise one then you can start to compare and pin down the section of the fish preserved...I have not got access to any of my papers at the moment so I cant be of any further help... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Missourian....Yep...I can see the shapes and thats what the ID basically becomes a shape recognition exercise as the fish skulls were made up of many different shaped bony plates... If you recognise one then you can start to compare and pin down the section of the fish preserved...I have not got access to any of my papers at the moment so I cant be of any further help... We have found fragments (scapulas, jaws, fins, etc.) of the shark Cobelodus in a couple of the black shales around here. One photo of that shark in Gerald Case's book 'Pictorial Guide to Fossils' does show a specimen seen from above/below that sort of has a triangular head. But as you say, it is a matter of identifying a specific bone. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCFossils Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 To me it looks more like a coprolite then a fish skull. I see the "bony structures" and the one side definately has an overall skull shape but the preservation to me looks more like a coprolite. I often times find similarly preserved material in Mazon Creek concretions I hope i am wrong as it would be a very unusual type of fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 To me it looks more like a coprolite then a fish skull. If it is, it came from a frighteningly large animal. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Missourian... et al Paleo mysteries can be fun, but if not answered they can be exasperating I suggest contacting an expert IE Mike Everhart (Oceans of Kansas) for example...and report back here Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniraptoran Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 the shape of it kinda reminds me of a moray eel skull. where morays around during the Pennsylvanian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCFossils Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 There were some very large sharks and lungfish swimming around in the Pennsylvannian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I think an expert opinion on this would be the way to go and I look forward to reading the reply.... Roz has a good contact Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I think an expert opinion on this would be the way to go and I look forward to reading the reply.... Roz has a good contact 5th post suggesting an expert examine this specimen Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 5th post suggesting an expert examine this specimen Yeah LOL.... This one has us stumped..... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Did you get an ID? I have a couple of contacts if you's like them.. Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I'd be hopping on K-10 and getting that to KU. That is a wicked cool fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 No ID yet. I almost forgot about it. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Weve been very patient... now get it sorted! ... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 I know it's been 11 years, but this is a very interesting specimen to me... did you ever figure out if it was even a fish skull? Either way, nice find 1 -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted May 23 Author Share Posted May 23 I still haven't identified yet. I do need to take some better photos, though 1 Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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