Kehbe Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I thought this was an interesting piece. I found it at a terribly overpicked site in south Jackson co. Missouri. Not big and not rare but nice shape, color and looks good on it's little pedestal of matrix. It will look good in the display cabinet! Of the bucket load of crinoid stems I have found, it is the only 5 sided one I've found so far. I have searched the internet for 5 sided crinoid, pentagonal crinoid and lots of other variations on that description and am having a hard time ID'ing it or even finding any images that closely resemble it. Any recommendations on how to narrow it down furthur and tag it other than just 'crinoid'? Hey, thanks for lookin! pic1 It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. Charles Darwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trilobiteruss Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) Several unrelated Ordovician crinoids have pentagonal stems. I think given your location these are probably Ordovician crinoids at least. As to genera or any more specifics not sure this is a distinguishing character that will allow you to do much more but maybe someone else has more info.....??? Of course this stem type makes it all the way at least into the crinoids of the mesozoic (pentacrinoids for example) but given your location the bedrock in area is likely Ordovician. I have not heard of any mesozoic crinoid material in the cretaceous in the bootheel area of Missouri, usually other invertebrates. russ Edited January 5, 2012 by dinoruss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's really a fascinating cabinet piece; even non-adept viewers should find it very interesting! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kehbe Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Several unrelated Ordovician crinoids have pentagonal stems. I think given your location these are probably Ordovician crinoids at least. As to genera or any more specifics not sure this is a distinguishing character that will allow you to do much more but maybe someone else has more info.....??? Of course this stem type makes it all the way at least into the crinoids of the mesozoic (pentacrinoids for example) but given your location the bedrock in area is likely Ordovician. I have not heard of any mesozoic crinoid material in the cretaceous in the bootheel area of Missouri, usually other invertebrates. russ Thanks Dinoruss for the info however, I wasn't referring to the bootheel. I should have been more specific. Sorry. When I say south Jackson county, I am speaking of the south Kansas City area. I believe the area is Bethany Falls Limestone with Winterset Limestone on top of that. This crinoid was found in the Winterset as best I can determine. This link shows very close proximity to where I found this piece. http://www.geospectr...ology/geo02.jpg This is not my picture and is from this website. http://www.geospectr...ogy/bedrock.htm Thanks again for the info though and that gives me another avenue to explore. It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. Charles Darwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trilobiteruss Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Barry correctly pointed out that the bedrock in your area is Pennsylvanian not Ordovician but I had not checked your location, I keyed in on the word south not checking where Jackson County was. There a a bunch of Penn crinoids that also have pentagonal stems. As I looked via google I found a number of articles that basically said that even generic classification is hard to do with just stems, but some have tried to so so as there is variation in the individual diameters of the disks making up the columnal and those patterns can sometimes help... Nice find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Go to this site to get the PDF of an article that describes several pentagonal crinoid stems including pennsylvanian. The article is authored by Raymond C. Moore and Russell M. Jeffords. http://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/handle/1808/3820 . R.C. Moore, R.M. Jeffords and T.H. Miller authored a series on Crinoid columnals published by the U of Kansas Paleontological Institute. Incidentally, R.C. Moore was the father of the Treatise of Invertebrate Paleontology, R.M. Jeffors was, in his career, Chief Paleontologist of Exxon and T.H. Miller worked for him at Exxon. Jim The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trilobiteruss Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Thanks Dinoruss for the info however, I wasn't referring to the bootheel. I should have been more specific. Sorry. When I say south Jackson county, I am speaking of the south Kansas City area. I believe the area is Bethany Falls Limestone with Winterset Limestone on top of that. This crinoid was found in the Winterset as best I can determine. This link shows very close proximity to where I found this piece. http://www.geospectr...ology/geo02.jpg This is not my picture and is from this website. http://www.geospectr...ogy/bedrock.htm Thanks again for the info though and that gives me another avenue to explore. Yeah as I told Barry (Indy) who PM'd me I should have drank my coffee first and read your post closer. :blink: Yes Kansas City area is Penn for sure. I was looking at google to see what I could find and I hit a post of Penn crinoid columnals and many were pentagonal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trilobiteruss Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Thanks Dinoruss for the info however, I wasn't referring to the bootheel. I should have been more specific. Sorry. When I say south Jackson county, I am speaking of the south Kansas City area. I believe the area is Bethany Falls Limestone with Winterset Limestone on top of that. This crinoid was found in the Winterset as best I can determine. This link shows very close proximity to where I found this piece. http://www.geospectr...ology/geo02.jpg This is not my picture and is from this website. http://www.geospectr...ogy/bedrock.htm Thanks again for the info though and that gives me another avenue to explore. I have heard of the Winterset Ls. There are equivalents in Illinois although off the top of my head I do not remember right now. I would love to collect in Kansas City area but never had time, lots of nice Penn. crinoids from there for sure!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Go to this site to get the PDF of an article that describes several pentagonal crinoid stems including pennsylvanian. The article is authored by Raymond C. Moore and Russell M. Jeffords. http://kuscholarwork...andle/1808/3820 . R.C. Moore, R.M. Jeffords and T.H. Miller authored a series on Crinoid columnals published by the U of Kansas Paleontological Institute. Incidentally, R.C. Moore was the father of the Treatise of Invertebrate Paleontology, R.M. Jeffors was, in his career, Chief Paleontologist of Exxon and T.H. Miller worked for him at Exxon. Jim Thanks much for the link. Now I'll have to find an extra hour or so to go through it.... R. C. Moore really did some incredible work in many areas of paleontology and stratigraphy. To narrow down the possibilities, the crinoids in the Kansas City area almost exclusively fall into the group of crinoids with dicyclic cups. It used to be within 'sub-class Inadunata', but I think they now fall under sub-class Cladida. And nice stem, Kehbe. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yes, not just round and not even just round and pentagonal. Look also for star shaped stems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Hey Jim, I'm glad you posted that link, I think I have finally ID'd a crinoid stem that I've had for years! Just wish it had more of the Cretaceous ones in there so I could get some idea of the Isocrinids around here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kehbe Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Thanks JkFoam for the great articles! Got them saved in a folder I started just for pdf papers and articles. I can't believe the one of them is 74 megs. Geeze, its basically just text! Thing is, when reading these types of papers, I spend about half my time rereading parts of it twice and three times and looking up words and definitions, places and terms and still sometimes don't quite understand what I am reading! I guess it's true what they say about 'easier to learn when you are young!' at least that is the excuse I'm using! Thanks again for all your comments everyone! It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. Charles Darwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Thing is, when reading these types of papers, I spend about half my time rereading parts of it twice and three times and looking up words and definitions, places and terms and still sometimes don't quite understand what I am reading! I guess it's true what they say about 'easier to learn when you are young!' Lehbe, LOL, you are right! When reading paleontological articles, especially those describing new species, I have often thought when getting to the end of a description, I know I'm reading English but I have'nt understood a word of what I just read. Then I turn to the Plates included in the article and I think, "Ah, a picture is worth a thousand words". Then I go back and reread the article. Jim The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I gave up a long time ago trying to ID crinoids based only on stem fragments. However, I seldom pass up collecting nice examples Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I prefer to identify crinoid stems by the crown that is attached to one end. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Well it's not impossible, I think I got an ID based just on the stem. Of course it helps when the stem is so distinctive. I do it by just looking at the pics then referring to the text if necessary. Pretty sure I saw something similar to your example in there, Kyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trilobiteruss Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I prefer to identify crinoid stems by the crown that is attached to one end. Yes I try to do that as much as I can find them..... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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