I Found A Fossil(S)...how Do I Know If I Can Bring It Home?

[shorefisherman]

I'm new here, I live in ND and I find fossils everywhere, but I find them on land owned by everyone but me. Farmer bob, US army corps. of engineers, State of ND, city of _____etc etc. just not me and I don't even have mineral rights if one could argue fossils being minerals. as far as I understand, if it's not in your rock garden in the backyard, it's not yours.

is there just a bunch of gray areas on this matter and once they're in your garage it just goes to "don't ask, don't tell"? but then how does one verify locations, dates, etc.?

give me a paragraph of general fossil finding etiquette. I've searched this site for an hour or so and found alot of gray...is there any black & white?

[Wrangellian]

Hi, The laws are different in every state/province/country so I wont say anything until someone who knows ND law chimes in, but whatever you do, make sure you record the location data, whether or not it can be verified later by going back to the site - you need some kind of location data, as accurate as possible, and any is better than none, otherwise the fossil is no better than a paperweight or doorstop!

Good luck.

[xonenine]

welcome shorefisherman - I find the situation very similar in NY.There are a few sites where we get access to creeks or lakes, and at these points I would go up and down the creek or lake shore, unless obstacles make it impossible to proceed right at water's edge.If I need to go walking in peoples yards, it won't do.Asking permission has served me well for harvesting wood, digging for bottles, and now, collecting fossils.

A good guideline to ettiquette is what one sees the local fishermen do, they generally are more familiar with some of these access points.As far as grey areas, if I am unsure whether I am allowed to collect somewhere, etiquette tells me don't go there or take fossils out.Researching where others go/have gone here and on the web is a good idea,

Joining Geology/Paleontology/Mineral/Fossil clubs gets you access to new places and times.Pay to dig sites and events are also good options.

Here there are many road cuts also, some degraded and natural, some as manicured as a golf course.I stay away from the later, modern ones, and any that are too close to the road.I'm sure others will add some more thoughts on this, and here are a few threads about collecting sites:

http://www.thefossil...rospecting-101/

http://www.thefossil...osing-the-deal/

Edited March 27, 2012 by xonenine

[Auspex]

...is there just a bunch of gray areas on this matter and once they're in your garage it just goes to "don't ask, don't tell"? but then how does one verify locations, dates, etc.?

In a nutshell, if the land is not yours, it belongs to someone/something else. If you would like to collect someone else's property, the onus is on you to find the owner and get permission. Property laws can be complicated, notoriously so in the West (just ask Pete Larson, of Tyrannosaurus Sue fame), but "gray areas" usually have their roots in rationalization.

[Vordigern]

Joining Geology/Paleontology/Mineral/Fossil clubs gets you access to new places and times.Pay to dig sites and events are also good options.

this is a great idea, I recently joined the Delaware Valley Paleontological Society and they have some great trips planned, also if its on Farmer Bobs land, ask Farmer Bobs permission. Ive found people more receptive to the phrase "Im fossil collecting" than "Im fossil hunting". Also know the area/formations youre hunting, not only is it going to help you find the right places to collect but if sound like a knowledgable and serious amatuer paleontologist you'll get further with the people on whos land you want to collect. If Im going to an area I know is safe and want to put "prying eyes" minds at ease I bring one of my kids, nothing says "Im not up to mischief" like having a kid with you. Go to the army core of engineers and ask, they may have moved some material to another area expressly designated for fossil collecting and it may only require a permit. Dont take risks, its much cheaper to buy a trilobite, brachiopods or some fossil ferns on ebay than to pay a big fine for taking fossils off State lands. Good luck!

[shorefisherman]

Who owns the bottom of the missouri river?

[Kehbe]

Who owns the bottom of the missouri river?

Corp of engineers? BLM? I'm not sure I've seen some pretty big catfish come out of the Muddy Missouri and I'm sure they owned their own little piece of it! If I drug up something from the bottom of the Missouri river in the course of employment, and it wasn't scientifically signifigant, I would be tempted to label it and keep it. People find bison bones on the sandbars all the time and keep them! Problem might be if you found something special and had to report it in the name of science. You know, my thought concerning collecting laws is, much will be lost if amatuers are not allowed to collect. I understand there are those that will take advantage, destroying property and raping scientifically important sites but could you justify throwing an important find back in the river to sink to the bottom where it will never be seen again just because the corps of engineers says you cant collect there? hogwash! If it's signifigant, record and report it properly, if its not, nobody is the wiser. Someones personal/private property however, you should ALWAYS get permission. Just my thoughts.

(edit) I forgot to mention state and national parks. That is a whole different ballgame. Follow their rules closely. Not only do I believe in maintaining the integrity of the flora and fauna, biologic and geologic, but the fines and penalties can be stiff and large!

Edited March 27, 2012 by Kehbe

[Auspex]

Who owns the bottom of the missouri river?

Here's a link to the National Rivers website: <click me>

And here is a synopsis (this is a starting point: due diligence in further research is urged):

1. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that rivers that are navigable, for title purposes, are owned by the states, "held in trust" for the public. This applies in all fifty states, under the "Equal Footing Doctrine."
   
2. Rivers that do meet the federal test are automatically navigable, and therefore owned by the state. No court or government agency has to designate them as such.
   
3. The federal test of navigability is not a technical test. There are no measurements of river width, depth, flow, or steepness involved. The test is simply whether the river is usable as a route by the public, even in small craft such as canoes, kayaks, and rafts. Such a river is legally navigable even if it contains big rapids, waterfalls, and other obstructions at which boaters get out, walk around, then re-enter the water.
   
4. The states own these rivers up to the "ordinary high water mark." This is the mark that people can actually see on the ground, where the high water has left debris, sand, and gravel during its ordinary annual cycle. (Not during unusual flooding.) It is not a theoretical line requiring engineering calculations. Where the river banks are fairly flat, this mark can be quite a distance from the edge of the water during medium water flows. There is often plenty of room for standing, fishing, camping, and other visits.
   
5. States cannot sell or give away these rivers and lands up to the ordinary high water mark. Under the "Public Trust Doctrine," they must hold them in perpetuity for public use.
   
6. The three public uses that the courts have traditionally mentioned are navigation, fishing, and commerce. But the courts have ruled that any and all non-destructive activities on these land are legally protected, including picnics, camping, walking, and other activities. The public can fish, from the river or from the shore below the "ordinary high water mark." (Note that the fish and wildlife are owned by the state in any case.) The public can walk, roll a baby carriage, and other activities, according to court decisions.
   
7. States do have authority and latitude in the way they manage rivers, but their management must protect the public uses mentioned above. They can (and must) prohibit or restrict activities that conflict with the Public Trust Doctrine. "Responsible recreation" must be allowed, but activities that could be harmful, such as building fires, leaving trash, and making noise, can legally be limited, or prohibited, in various areas. Motorized trips and commercial trips can legally be limited or prohibited by state governments.
   
8. State and local restrictions on use of navigable rivers have to be legitimately related to enhancing public trust value, not reducing it. Rivers cannot be closed or partially closed to appease adjacent landowners, or to appease people who want to dedicate the river to fishing only, or to make life easier for local law enforcement agencies.
   
9. State governments (through state courts and legislatures) cannot reduce public rights to navigate and visit navigable rivers within their borders, but they can expand those rights, and some states have done so. They can create a floatage easement, a public right to navigate even on rivers that might not qualify for state ownership for some reason, even if it is assumed that the bed and banks of the river are private land. Note that this floatage easement is a matter of state law that varies from state to state, but the question of whether a river is navigable, for title purposes, and therefore owned by the state, is a matter of federal law, and does not vary from state to state. Note that a state floatage easement is something that comes and goes with the water: When the water is there, people have a right to be there on it, and when it dries up, people have no right to be there. But rivers that are navigable for title purposes are public land up to the ordinary high water mark, so that even when the river runs dry, people still have the right to walk along the bed of the river.
   
10. Only federal courts can modify the test of standards that make a river navigable for title purposes. States cannot create their own standards, either narrower or wider in scope. They can’t make definitive rulings about which rivers are navigable for title purposes, only a federal court can.
    
11. The situation gets confusing when a state agency or commission holds hearings about navigability and public use of rivers. Landowners, sheriffs, and other people tend to think that such an agency or commission can create state standards that determine which rivers are public and which are private. But these are matters of federal law which state agencies cannot change.
    
12. State agencies should make provisional determinations that various rivers meet the federal test of navigability for title purposes. These provisional determinations should be based simply on the rivers' usability by canoes, kayaks, and rafts. They should then proceed to the question of how to manage navigation and other public uses of the river. In these days of government cut-backs, the agency should look for solutions that use existing enforcement agencies rather than setting up new ones. Littering, illegal fires, offensive behavior, trespassing on private land, and numerous other offenses are all covered by existing laws, and offenders can be cited by the local police, sheriff's office or state police.
    

Takes your breath away, doesn't it? Where property is valued, property laws tend to be serious affairs!

[shorefisherman]

Corp of engineers? BLM? I'm not sure I've seen some pretty big catfish come out of the Muddy Missouri and I'm sure they owned their own little piece of it! If I drug up something from the bottom of the Missouri river in the course of employment, and it wasn't scientifically signifigant, I would be tempted to label it and keep it. People find bison bones on the sandbars all the time and keep them!

Funny you should mention that, the first bison skull I found I snagged in a couple feet of water while fishing and waded out and drug it home thinking it was nothing more than an old buffalo skull. people find them all the time on the sandbars and river banks down there. it wasn't until recently that I did a little curious research and found that these skulls may be occidentalis and a few other extinct specie of bison. and if so how do I tell the difference?

after the major flooding and 200,000 cubic feet per second flows last year, tons of these have surfaced along the mighty missouri. I'd bet that if I searched for 8 hours a day for a week I could find over a hundred skulls of varying sizes and differences. I saw the left side of a skull just the other day while fishing and from the tip of the horn to the broken edge of the skull (half way point) was 19" that would give it a 38 to 40" spread, I don't think Bison bison got that big?

anyway, can I get in trouble for the 3 skulls I brought home over the years, because I'd like to bring light to the newliy unearthed bones I've been seeing to the local college or the corps of engineers, but not if they're just going to start asking questions about how I knew what these were with the intent on writing me fines. I don't want to just let them all erode away and be collected for rock garden decoration to slowly disentigrate in other peoples backyards, or are these that common that the scientific community isn't concerned enough about the data they could gather from this area?

[Kehbe]

Good questions shorefisherman! A 40" wide spread is huge! That would be a nice one to have whole! In answer to your questions, I am probably not the right person to be asking. I am an amateur in the fullest sense of the word and don't know the answers to your questions. I am of the opinion that were you to report the material that remains in situ in the interest of science, they would not question how you came to know where they are or what they are. I would not volunteer any info on anything you may already have in your garage You are on the river often enough I assume and would have a natural curiosity to find out what they are and to spot them during the course of carrying out your other activities! I do see pictures posted on here of bison bones that are found on the river all the time. As a matter of fact, I have considered checking it out myself! My only hesitation has been the space required to keep said bones once I bring them home Okay well, so it's my wifes hesitation!!! At any rate, I'm sure someone more knowledgable than myself will chime in shortly with some more accurate information! Can't wait to see some pictures of that monster horn spread!

[shorefisherman]

I'll post a pic of the few I've gathered over the years when I get home. I didnt keep or photograph the half skull I saw last week that was 19" accross, but I do have a full skull thats about 29 or 30" accross and 26" back to front and another half skull that's 17" wide which would double to have been 34" across. what's the max skull measurements on a Bison bison?

[Herb]

A couple points:

1. in most states the navigable water rule applies, until you get out of the boat and then wade, then you are standing on someone's property. If you are in a vessel you are fine, I guess a gray area would be if the water is shallow and you can reach the fossil on the bottom from inside the boat. I don't think the fossil police will bother you if you collect along waterways as long as you're not in a park area.

2. Most states have laws banning the collection of vertebrate fossils.but, if they are "disassociated or loose specimens" you can usually collect them. If it is a "significant?" find they need to be reported. (also banned in most states are human remains) Florida explains the rules that fit many states.

3. As long as you are not tresspassing most states don't care about invertebrate fossils unless you start excavating the road cuts.

hope this helps some.

[shorefisherman]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulschumann/7022841147/

having trouble uploading photos heres the link. what can you guys tell me about these? how can I tell what species they were? there are hundreds of newly exposed bones that I have decided to leave alone now that I realize they might me a little more signifigant than a modern day animal skull. who should I tell about the recently unearthed bones or is it even signifigant enough for anyone too care?

Edited March 28, 2012 by shorefisherman

[Herb]

I don't know much about vertebrates but those look awfully recent

[Jesse]

Most states have laws banning the collection of vertebrate fossils.but, if they are "disassociated or loose specimens" you can usually collect them.

This is incorrect Herb. The collection of vertebrate fossils off of public land is strictly prohibited, regardless of the condition of the specimen. The new laws in place were put initiated on the federal level and federally enforced.

If it is on public land don't touch it. If it is on private land, get written permission. It is your responsibility to know whose land you are on at all times.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/Planning_and_Renewable_Resources/coop_agencies/paleontology_library/paleo_publications.Par.33400.File.dat/FossilsAmerPubLands.pdf

[shorefisherman]

I don't know much about vertebrates but those look awfully recent

sorry, they're not "fossils" by the true definition and maybe they're just recent Bison skulls, or heck maybe even farmer Bob's angus, just want to be sure, so I hope you guys can shed some light and help me decide to... Enjoy them inside and preserved as an educational piece for my family, or return them to where I found them, or show a university where there are many more, or just toss them out in the rock garden to be surrounded by pretty flowers.

awesome and informative site you guys have here, I'm glad I found it.

The other "fossil" I have may or may not be a fossil. I found it in a pile with 5 other identical sized shape and colored "rocks" you could say. I didn't have a camera and I was in the middle of nowhere hunting in the badlands, so I brought one home and no one has been able to identify it yet. this pile of identical rocks was sticking out the side of an eroded butte and looked out of place to me. My guess is strange geological formation or dinosaur eggs, what are your thoughts???

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulschumann/7022920835/

[Auspex]

The other "fossil" I have may or may not be a fossil. I found it in a pile with 5 other identical sized shape and colored "rocks" you could say. I didn't have a camera and I was in the middle of nowhere hunting in the badlands, so I brought one home and no one has been able to identify it yet. this pile of identical rocks was sticking out the side of an eroded butte and looked out of place to me. My guess is strange geological formation or dinosaur eggs, what are your thoughts???

http://www.flickr.co...ann/7022920835/

This resembles a "septarian nodule", a type of concretion. They sometimes have interesting crystals (or even fossils) inside them.