-AnThOnY- Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Anyone know of a good place to get some? And what kind is appropriate to use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I prefer Vinac....it seems to mix up and stay mixed better. You can get Vinac beads here: http://www.bhigr.com/store/product.php?productid=262&cat=37&page=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Thank you Xiphactinus! Looks like I finally need some of that. Can a batch be stored after making it up, or do you just make a new batch as needed? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolmt Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I use the original vinac beads (but the ones from black hills are essentially the same thing) and I keep the solution in a glass jar with a metal lid. I use about a teaspoon of beads to about 1 1/2 ounces of acetone. I keep for months after mixing , my jar is about 2 ounces in size was originally for airbrush paint. I do occassionally add a bit more acetone to the jar because the solution thickens with time as the acetone evaporates. You can tell when its time to add acetone as it does not penetrate the matrix very well when it starts to get viscous. I use mainly on trilobites and use a very dilute solution to penetrate the fossil and consolidate soft matrix as opposed to trying to build a protective coat. I also only use where it is needed I do not use as a general coating on my fossils as some do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Thank you Malcolm. And thank you Anthony for starting this. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AnThOnY- Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 Thanks for the info, how is this applied? I've heard of some people that completely soak fossils in the stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolmt Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) I really only use on invertebrate material mostly trilobites, I only specifically use on areas that need consolidation or need a part glued back on that chips off during prep. Some of the trilos tend to be very fragile, As I do 100% of my prep under a scope I apply with a 00 camel hair brush that is generally used for painting high end plastic models. This allows me to place the vinac solution very precisely. It drys within about 2 to 3 seconds as it is so dilute. It is fully reversable with acetone and my micro abrasion (dolomite) easily removes any surface film that I do not want. You don't really want the fossil to have shiny spots if the rest of the fossil is dull. I have never soaked a fossil in vinac solution. The fumes from the acetone would be a bit much. I have however soaked some very flakey matrix in white glue very heavily diluted with water. White glue is essentially a water based PVA solution. Edited April 12, 2012 by Malcolmt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Some people sit bones in a butvar or vinac solution, but depending on the size and porosity of a bone, it's probably good enough just to give it a coating with a brush. Thanks for the info, how is this applied? I've heard of some people that completely soak fossils in the stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Thank you Xiphactinus! Looks like I finally need some of that. Can a batch be stored after making it up, or do you just make a new batch as needed? When going after "big game" (W. Kansas) I mix up a laundry detergent bottle of Vinac. (The ones with the little build in spout.) Then I have a dishwashing liquid bottle (with the pop-up spigot on top) that I fill. That bottle is very convenient and easy to take into the field. When you find something brittle, you can squirt/pour Vinac on the piece with good control and let it set up before trying to extract. It takes a long time to dry, but it will consolidate the piece well. You also don't disturb the fossil with brushing. Like siteseer said - small bones that you are just wanting to seal and protect are OK with a good brushing. Brittle and porous bones you want to strengthen need submersion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AnThOnY- Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 Does this help seal and protect from pyrite rot? I have a bunch of verts that are covered in pyrite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 When going after "big game" (W. Kansas) I mix up a laundry detergent bottle of Vinac. (The ones with the little build in spout.) Then I have a dishwashing liquid bottle (with the pop-up spigot on top) that I fill. That bottle is very convenient and easy to take into the field. When you find something brittle, you can squirt/pour Vinac on the piece with good control and let it set up before trying to extract. It takes a long time to dry, but it will consolidate the piece well. You also don't disturb the fossil with brushing. Like siteseer said - small bones that you are just wanting to seal and protect are OK with a good brushing. Brittle and porous bones you want to strengthen need submersion. I am working on putting together a Odontocete skeleton... I've had to glue a few hundred pieces together in order to put it back together. I'm not done, but I want to preserve it when I am done. I'm worried if I soak it then the glue will loosen and the pieces will fall off before it hardens. Will painting this stuff on the bones do the same trick as soaking them? I want to make sure that they are protected when I get done putting it together. Thanks to all. History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 ...I'm worried if I soak it then the glue will loosen and the pieces will fall off before it hardens... Is the glue you are using soluble in acetone? If so, you might consider using an alcohol-based preservative. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Is the glue you are using soluble in acetone? If so, you might consider using an alcohol-based preservative. I used elmer's glue to put the pieces together incase I needed to make some adjustments. Armed with that knowledge can you suggest something that would seal and protect them? History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I used elmer's glue to put the pieces together incase I needed to make some adjustments. Armed with that knowledge can you suggest something that would seal and protect them? 'Govinn' has made a serious preparation error. These bone fragments must be consolidated BEFORE they are glued together. Joins made with Elmer's Glue will not withstand later exposure to anything with acetone as a solvent. You may be able to substitute some other solvent in a consolidant. (I don't know whether white glue joins will resist alcohol or toluene, for example.) There are a number of threads in TFF archives that deal with consolidants and preserving fossils and white glue. Do some research, 'Govinn'. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Well, maybe I need a bit more clarification. I'm not working with bone, rather a very crumbly fossil. Is this still the stuff to use? My apologies, Anthony. I'm not trying to hijack your thread. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I used elmer's glue to put the pieces together incase I needed to make some adjustments. Armed with that knowledge can you suggest something that would seal and protect them? Do you think a more surfacial coating (vs. soaking) would be adequate for your purpose? Brushing or basting a manageable area at a time might do. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AnThOnY- Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 Do you think a more surfacial coating (vs. soaking) would be adequate for your purpose? Brushing or basting a manageable area at a time might do. Thats what I was thinking as well. Soaking the bone in it would most likely be detrimental, but I don't know why brushing it on would do any harm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Thats what I was thinking as well. Soaking the bone in it would most likely be detrimental, but I don't know why brushing it on would do any harm If all you want to do is brush on a coating, Butvar B-76 or Vinac is the wrong stuff. These are used as consolidants - dissolved in acetone - which penetrate the bone to harden it. And it will penetrate to PVA joins and loosen them. It won't matter much whether you apply the consolidant by dipping the bone or by daubing it. You can coat a bone with clear polyurethane, but that is never a good thing to do because it is not reversible. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opisthotriton Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Soaking a bone in vinac for more than a few seconds would only work if you have a really solid bone. Bones that are more fragile get even more fragile in water or acetone (porous bone like a vertebra or end of a limb bone literally turns into mush), so when you're using vinac on those bones, you need to let it dry completely before trying to prep it any more. Soaking a Hell Creek dinosaur bone (something besides a Triceratops frill, those things are like rocks) in a bucket of acetone would give you a nice puddle of bone shards and mush. Vinac is a great way to preserve bone, you just need patience to let it dry in between brushed/dripped applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) There are a number of threads in TFF archives that deal with consolidants and preserving fossils and white glue. Do some research, 'Govinn'. Ouch Harry... :fainting-smiley: That hurt a little... I'm going to act like your response was meant in a good way, but you may want to brush up on the people skills a little... I respect your input and thank you for your response. I do try to do my research. There is a LOT of information on this amazing site, some of which present conflicting ideas... My plans were to preserve this fossil to the best of my LIMITED ability and put it on a shelf for my family to enjoy. I spend 95% of my time traveling on the road and I'm rarely home, so I have to make do with what I have available. I've never sold a fossil so I don't plan on anyone ever really handling this... From what I've read and heard from fellow collectors, I could use white glue (which dries clear and not yellow) to join the broken pieces and then brush a light coat of diluted glue over the pieces just to add some strength... The bones are pretty solid, I just didn't want the smaller pieces to break if I were to pick it up... Sorry for my digression, I know it wasn't the intent of this threads creator. Edited April 13, 2012 by Govinn History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Ouch Harry... :fainting-smiley: That hurt a little... I'm going to act like your response was meant in a good way, but you may want to brush up on the people skills a little... I respect your input and thank you for your response. I do try to do my research. There is a LOT of information on this amazing site, some of which present conflicting ideas... My plans were to preserve this fossil to the best of my LIMITED ability and put it on a shelf for my family to enjoy. I spend 95% of my time traveling on the road and I'm rarely home, so I have to make do with what I have available. I've never sold a fossil so I don't plan on anyone ever really handling this... From what I've read and heard from fellow collectors, I could use white glue (which dries clear and not yellow) to join the broken pieces and then brush a light coat of diluted glue over the pieces just to add some strength... The bones are pretty solid, I just didn't want the smaller pieces to break if I were to pick it up... Sorry for my digression, I know it wasn't the intent of its creator. Govinn - you should be able to brush vinac on after you've glued it together. Just be aware that the acetone will soften the glue for awhile. It will set back up, but will be VERY fragile in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govinn Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Govinn - you should be able to brush vinac on after you've glued it together. Just be aware that the acetone will soften the glue for awhile. It will set back up, but will be VERY fragile in the meantime. Thank you very much Xiphactinus. History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Ouch Harry... :fainting-smiley: That hurt a little... I'm going to act like your response was meant in a good way, but you may want to brush up on the people skills a little... I respect your input and thank you for your response. I do try to do my research. There is a LOT of information on this amazing site, some of which present conflicting ideas... My plans were to preserve this fossil to the best of my LIMITED ability and put it on a shelf for my family to enjoy. I spend 95% of my time traveling on the road and I'm rarely home, so I have to make do with what I have available. I've never sold a fossil so I don't plan on anyone ever really handling this... From what I've read and heard from fellow collectors, I could use white glue (which dries clear and not yellow) to join the broken pieces and then brush a light coat of diluted glue over the pieces just to add some strength... The bones are pretty solid, I just didn't want the smaller pieces to break if I were to pick it up... Sorry for my digression, I know it wasn't the intent of this threads creator. You're welcome, 'Govinn'. But, in truth, I wasn't responding so much to solve your glue problem as I was to prevent other newbies from making the same mistake you've made. You'll work out your own problem with your specimen. My focus is on the many other collectors who will read this thread. This topic has been discussed many times in detail -- it's all in the archives. AND, it will turn up in a Google search. That is the reason that I bothered to address your problem -- so that others will recognize and avoid such errors. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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