Harry Pristis Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Here are two different lower jaws, one edentulous (without teeth) and the other with teeth. What taxon do they represent? This is not a giant vampire bat. You are familiar with this critter in some way, to some degree. No partial credit for size-based guesses; some of you have gotten too good at that! This is an essay question: Tell us what you can deduce from the images. Good luck in the rush for the gold! http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 serious carnivore, teeth for catching and holding. fox or something else very predatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I would say fox, canine family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Alphadon an educated fossil guess, marsupials can be distinguished from placentals by their dentition. Marsupials have 3 premolars, the sample in question does as well. The dentition also seems to have one main molar and canine which would be representative of my educated guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopocetus Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Can you tell us the age of this fossil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explorer1 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Here are two different lower jaws, one edentulous (without teeth) and the other with teeth. What taxon do they represent? This is not a giant vampire bat. You are familiar with this critter in some way, to some degree.No partial credit for size-based guesses; some of you have gotten too good at that! This is an essay question: Tell us what you can deduce from the images. Good luck in the rush for the gold! Ok this species appears like skunk to me, or what nick said the 3 premolars normally have or are oppsum, but this one by the size of the teeh , yes skunk or close relative also i have gravel for sale check the trade room or my posts. god hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 2, 2008 Author Share Posted November 2, 2008 No, no, and a big NO to Nicholas (though I appreciate the deductive process in his thinking). Remember that subscribers--even those in Europe--are familiar with this animal in some way, to some degree. (I don't want to mis-lead anyone; relatively few subscribers will have seen a jaw bone like these.) Nonetheless, there is information to be gleaned from the images. There is a generic feature of mammal teeth that is the key to this identification. There is also a red herring. No, this is not a fish jaw! These jaws are Pleistocene, but the taxon has been around for a long time and is extent. Have I really found a stumper? Don't dispair; all will be made clear! http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopocetus Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 serious carnivore, teeth for catching and holding. fox or something else very predatory. The last molar isn't usually that big is it? Usually it is quite a bit smaller than the second to last molar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 No, no, and a big NO to Nicholas (though I appreciate the deductive process in his thinking). I'll make a note to be more quantitative, with that said Mustelidae... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 well, i'm not having much luck looking for comparative specimens online. guess i'm mephitidaed on this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 well, i'm not having much luck looking for comparative specimens online. guess i'm mephitidaed on this one... I believe you have it tracer, it was a toss up between mephitidae and Mustelidae for me. I think between the two we'll find our answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 river otter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopocetus Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I want to say a medium sized cat, Jaguar. The molars don't look like canid. The premolars look like a member of the cat family but I can't find any comparable molars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I believe canids only 3 molars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 Hmmm. Maybe I made this too difficult . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nawww! Though now I'm stumped for a decent clue. Books will not be much help with this one, at least my books weren't. This is the case even though this is not a rare animal. Those of you who have noted the unusual mix of teeth should follow where that may lead. I can tell you that no one has guessed even the family of this little critter. Think about the common features of mammalian dentition, and the key may dawn on you. You'll be amazed and delighted when you find out what it is. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryland Mike Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Hmm. Pleistocene, America and Europe. Hyanidae. Chasmaporthetes ossifragus. It would have to have been a small or young one. Carpe Diem, Carpe Somnium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kauffy Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Hmm. Pleistocene, America and Europe.Hyanidae. Chasmaporthetes ossifragus. It would have to have been a small or young one. Not possible? Chasmaporthetes ossifragus is an extinct Genus, Harry says "These jaws are Pleistocene, but the taxon has been around for a long time and is extent." Just so we are 100% clear, the genus is not extinct? The jaws definantly represent similar dentition to the Skunks, large Molars and distinctive carnassial, and as Nick stated 3 pre molars. The teeth seem to be much stouter, much bulkyer which leads me to believe that this animal would be a very successful predator, something that has the ablitily to tear through tough skin and crush bones quite easily. Again it shares similar tooth structure to bats and in some ways Moles. As for what i think it is, well i have a few ideas, but im going to do a bit more research before i make a definative guess.... Interesting specimin Harry! "Turn the fear of the unknown into the excitment of possibility!"We dont stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kauffy Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Ok here are a couple of my guesses, i hope its ok to make more than one!! Firstly, due to its extream similarities to skunks im going to say the genus Mydaus (Stink Badger) family Mephitidae. (actually part of the skunk family, not badger) Perhaps im being too specific, and especially as i have no sources in order to compare the specimin a second guess is simply some type of badger family Mustelidea... Edit: After some review, i dont believe these are correct, comparing pictures of skulls and dentition on the web and they really do not have similar tooth structure... so i take those guesses back.... unless, in the unlikely circumstance they are correct... but i dont think so... So back to square one, skunk... i believe it could be some sort of unusual skunk, it definantly fits, everything about it it correct in terms of molar, carnassial, premolars and general structure and shape of the jaw. I just wouldnt have a clue as to what type, it would have to be very large... Im still not convinced it is skunk yet though... im no good at Inches, how many CMs long is the specimin? "Turn the fear of the unknown into the excitment of possibility!"We dont stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kauffy Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 There is a generic feature of mammal teeth that is the key to this identification. Carnassial? no no no?.....the extra "tooth" in the P1? the extra groove/ point coming out of the side is reaaallly puzzleing me, i have never seen any mammal with this type of tooth structure in the P1? hmmmmm Harry Harry Harry, why do you do this to me!? the gold is mine......... "Turn the fear of the unknown into the excitment of possibility!"We dont stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explorer1 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Ok here are a couple of my guesses, i hope its ok to make more than one!!Firstly, due to its extream similarities to skunks im going to say the genus Mydaus (Stink Badger) family Mephitidae. (actually part of the skunk family, not badger) Perhaps im being too specific, and especially as i have no sources in order to compare the specimin a second guess is simply some type of badger family Mustelidea... Edit: After some review, i dont believe these are correct, comparing pictures of skulls and dentition on the web and they really do not have similar tooth structure... so i take those guesses back.... unless, in the unlikely circumstance they are correct... but i dont think so... So back to square one, skunk... i believe it could be some sort of unusual skunk, it definantly fits, everything about it it correct in terms of molar, carnassial, premolars and general structure and shape of the jaw. I just wouldnt have a clue as to what type, it would have to be very large... Im still not convinced it is skunk yet though... im no good at Inches, how many CMs long is the specimin? thats what i said was skunk, its as close as i can come. also i have gravel for sale check the trade room or my posts. god hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 well, at the risk of having my reasoning shot down upon the reveal, it still seems like the sharp edges and cusps on everything in that jaw indicate the creature had a greater need for catching and rending than chewing. i'm therefore going to guess that it ate fish, since they're fast and slippery to catch. but since i don't think it's from an otter and seal seems a stretch, i officially give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreekCrawler Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Mink! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 Well . . . Some of you are dancing around the key. Kauffy noted the teeth are outsize for the jaw. Some of you noted the spikey form of the teeth, but no one pointed out that there is no wear on any of them. What does everyone, even Frenchmen, know about mammalian dentition because it's part of our own personal experience as mammals??!! We can ignore the edentulous jaw in the images. It's a red herring because it is pathological -- notice the distortion to the ramus (jaw bone) from a healed break. See how the front of the ramus is twisted out of line with the molars. Same animal, and you can count the alveoli, but otherwise not too instructive. Mike, I didn't say that these animals occur in Europe. Frenchmen are familiar with this animal in the same way I am familiar with kangaroos. That leaves the jaw with the outsize, ferocious teeth. What is it? http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreekCrawler Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Marten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Possum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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