Ramo Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) Thought I'd post a couple pictures of a small Pachy jaw. Pachyrhizodus minimus. When I hear Pachy, I think of big fish with mosasaur-like teeth. The minimus weird, because it usually is preserved entire in 3-D with scales and all. Here is a little jaw found by my wife that looks so good, it reminds me of those fake mosasaur jaws. This is entirely legit though. Ramo I painted a thin coat of B-72 over the jaw to protect it, That is why it looks kind of shiny. Edited February 7, 2014 by Ramo 1 For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 That is amazing, Ramo! Congrats to your wife on her find! Thanks for posting this. Regards, Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrolPete Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Really cool find Ramo! Was this out of the Greenhorn near your house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 Pete, This was found out in western Kansas in the Chalk. I did however visit that Greenhorn road-cut I took you to with "Missing Digits" the other day, and we found a few teeth, but we really didn't do as good as I thought we would. Ramo 1 For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foshunter Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 That is nice---Tom Grow Old Kicking And Screaming !!"Don't Tread On Me" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KansasFossilHunter Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) Beautiful Specimen! Great prep work, Ramo. Almost looks like a small Apateodus, except the teeth are too uniform. This is an Apateodus from the Keystone gallery- Edited May 20, 2013 by KansasFossilHunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I would guess that this is a dorsal fin spine from a chimaera or a hybodont shark. The way the teeth are bent over would not be very practical if they were teeth in a jaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I would guess that this is a dorsal fin spine from a chimaera or a hybodont shark. The way the teeth are bent over would not be very practical if they were teeth in a jaw. I would have thought of the same thing as Al Dente: selachian spine. Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Very cool! I like the big stuff, but it's nice to find pieces that can be carried out easily. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 I never considered a spine. I also never heard of a spine like this coming from the upper chalk. I'll do some checking and see what I come up with. Ramo For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 I still think it is a fish jaw. I sent pictures to two different people who are familiar with the formation, and both said it looks like Pachyrhizodus minimus to them. The bone to me appears to be 100% fish. I see a lot of fish bone, and a few pieces of shark verts, but this looks like fish. That combined with the fact that I couldn't find any info on selachian spines from the upper chalk makes be fairly confident in the ID. That being said, I would love for this to be a spine, so if you guys have any reason other than the "tooth" curvature, I'd be happy to reconsider. Here's another close up to look at. This is further back on the jaw. Ramo For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 it really looks like ratfish (Ischyrhiza?) dorsal fin spine to me. but could be wrong. they have 2 rows of "teeth" like that but the other row would still be encased in matrix underneath. David Parris (NJSM) wrote a paper on a similar, large ratfish dorsal fin spine from the kansas chalk beds. I would provide a reference but im in a hurry right now. 1 ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 Steve, In my research of Ratfish spines, I came across another puzzle I posted back in 2010. Perhaps you remember it. It was a codell sandstone "Jaw" with the teeth broken off I posted. You thought it might be a spine as well. I think we decided it was from a gar-like fish. Now after looking at some pictures of ratfish spines, I'm now not as sure as I once was on this particular find. This "jaw" however is flat, and not rounded. I think a ratfish spine would be more round in cross-section. (Not that I've ever seen one that I know of!) Ramo 1 For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) Ramo, I remember that one as well! Cross-section is more oval to rain drop shaped for a chimaeroid dorsal finspine. The sides are relatively flat. Would it be common to find one lone fish jaw/skull element like this in a piece of chalk matrix? I really don't know since I never have collected there, but from what I know it seems likely that there would be more fish skull elements surrounding it. For comparison, the best picture I currently have of one from NJ is in the thread below, post #15. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/1698-campanian-hybodont-finspine/?p=222196 I think the ratfish finspine from the chalk may be in this paper, but am not sure. I have a hardcopy, but its packed away somewhere BARBARA J. STAHL and DAVID C. PARRIS (2004) THE COMPLETE DENTITION OF EDAPHODON MIRIFICUS (CHONDRICHTHYES: HOLOCEPHALI) FROM A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL. Journal of Paleontology: February 2004, Vol. 78, No. 2, pp. 388-392. Edited May 21, 2013 by non-remanié ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahuijsmans Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Seems like a Ratfish spine, I have one from the Maastrichtiaan type area over here... The 'teeth' are far to neatly spread over the jaw...unrealistic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Hi, Here is a Miocene ray spine found in my area (N. W. France). Its size is 17 cm (6" 7/10). It isn't exactly the same, but the purpose of these photos is to show the structure of a selachian spine and its prickles. Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KansasFossilHunter Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Hi, Here is a Miocene ray spine found in my area (N. W. France). Its size is 17 cm (6" 7/10). It isn't exactly the same, but the purpose of these photos is to show the structure of a selachian spine and its prickles. Coco Now that's something to consider! Very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneman007 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) I can confirm that it is not a Pachyrhizodus minimus. I have a set of jaws at home, and the teeth look nothing like these. Edited May 21, 2013 by Boneman007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneman007 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Here are the jaws: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 Thanks Boneman, I agree. What I have doesn't look at all like what you have pictured. I also just got done looking at some pictures of individual Pachy minimus teeth in the new edition (Vol 115) of the "TRANSACTIONS of the Kansas Academy of Science". WIth this specimin, the back of the "jaw" gets thinner than the front, like in a fish jaw, and I do not believe that there is a second row of "teeth" below the other side. It is hard to see in the photo, but I cleaned all the way along the edge until there was no more bone, only matrix, so I'm pretty sure that the entire thickness of the piece is exposed. Any other guesses as to what this may be would be appreciated. Ramo For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrolPete Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 It looks kind of similar to the spine here: http://www.oceansofkansas.com/chimaeroid.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KansasFossilHunter Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 It looks kind of similar to the spine here: http://www.oceansofkansas.com/chimaeroid.html Not really, there aren't any teeth on those spines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrolPete Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Not really, there aren't any teeth on those spines... Are you sure it doesn't have 'teeth'? When I look at the inside of the curve it looks like the remnants of 'teeth' are still present in spots, but maybe that's just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneman007 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) It is a chimaeroid. The spine pictured in the site below shows it perfectly with the curved "teeth"!! See page 207 of this publication. http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/handle/2246/1403/B031a19.pdf;jsessionid=ED6816C07EA4A925C3F1E65808DBB569?sequence=1 That is, without a doubt, a incredible fossil. Thank you for sharing it. I would have never recognized it before either! Edited May 21, 2013 by Boneman007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 I hate to burst everyone's bubble on this...(especially mine), but I'm afraid it is just a Pachy jaw. I sent photos to both Mike Everhart, and Kenshu Shimada (along with the link Boneman provided), and both agreed that is definately not a spine. Those two probably have more experience with the upper chalk of western Kansas than everyone on here combined, so I will defer to their expertise and lable this Pachy minimus. (At least until one of them gets a chance to see it in person) Well, it was a fun to try and figure this out, and I learned a lot about ratfish in the process!!! Ramo 1 For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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