Ammonite Layer

[Dogdare]

Next month, my seven year old son and I will be digging for ammonites in Utah, in a general area that was provided to me.

That said, I want to make sure we're digging in the right 'layer'. Are there specific indicators that I should look for to point us to the correct geological layer to increase the odds of us finding some ammonites?

Herb

[Uncle Siphuncle]

i think the answer will be as specific as the info you provide as details vary by locality. if you want to keep the locality low key, you might go back to your original source of info and ask for more detail.

[erose]

Like dan suggests, go back to the original source for details. Otherwise when on site the simplest method is to pick a spot at the bottom of the slope or one side of the exposure and walk a straight line up or across looking for loose specimens. If going up a slope keep looking until you find the source layer. From there you can then go left or right looking for the best spots.

[Dogdare]

Thanks guys. I was provided the location coordinate third-hand, and without the explcit approval of either person, I didn't want to post the location (BLM land).

Thanks also for the strategy of working you way up the face of a slope to find the right layer. I'm still very much a newbie at this, so even something as fundemental as working up a slope is new knowledge to me. So far my seven yeard old son and I have had great luck in finding trilobite, Green River fish, and shark tooth fossils, but each of those has been in pay-to-dig quarries, where it's hard not to find fossils. This will be our first public land dig so there won't be anyone on-hand to guide us.

thanks,

Herb

[Boneman007]

You cannot fossil hunt on BLM land. Your finds will be confiscated, you will be arrested and your vehicle could be seized.

I have a friend who went through this in Montana. He didnt know that the last fence he crossed was from the ranch he had permission to hunt, to BLM land he did not have permission to hunt.

He was in jail for two weeks and it took quite some time longer to get his car back. All his finds were seized as well.

Needless to say, be careful and make sure you know where you're going and that you have WRITTEN permission with you if you go on BLM land.

Personally, I would stick to private land.

[fossiladdict]

^{Re: BLM Land}

^{http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/CRM/paleontology/fossil_collecting.html}

^{If you pick up vertebrae material, that's another story.}

[FossilDAWG]

You cannot fossil hunt on BLM land. Your finds will be confiscated, you will be arrested and your vehicle could be seized.

I have a friend who went through this in Montana. He didnt know that the last fence he crossed was from the ranch he had permission to hunt, to BLM land he did not have permission to hunt.

He was in jail for two weeks and it took quite some time longer to get his car back. All his finds were seized as well.

Needless to say, be careful and make sure you know where you're going and that you have WRITTEN permission with you if you go on BLM land.

Personally, I would stick to private land.

Just to reiterate, my understanding is that collection of common invertebrates, in a reasonable quantity and for a personal collection (not for sale), is permitted by current policy. Was your friend collecting vertebrate fossils, or was he a commercial collector stocking up material to sell? Either one would explain his problems. Collecting ammonites, or other invertebrates or plant fossils, would not. Still, sometimes authorities misunderstand the law, or get overzealous.

Don

[Boneman007]

Just to reiterate, my understanding is that collection of common invertebrates, in a reasonable quantity and for a personal collection (not for sale), is permitted by current policy. Was your friend collecting vertebrate fossils, or was he a commercial collector stocking up material to sell? Either one would explain his problems. Collecting ammonites, or other invertebrates or plant fossils, would not. Still, sometimes authorities misunderstand the law, or get overzealous.

Don

It was dino material. Hadrosaur bones I believe, which would definitely fall into what you've outlined above.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Boneman007

[Boneman007]

^{Re: BLM Land}

^{http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/CRM/paleontology/fossil_collecting.html}

^{If you pick up vertebrae material, that's another story.}

Very cool link. It's been 10 years since the incident, and the laws have definitely changed.

But, he would have still been in trouble due to the vertebrate (dino) remains he had. In addition, almost all dino material requires digging. That is also banned on BLM land as per the link.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Boneman007

[jpc]

Yes indeed, dino digging on BLM land is not allowed and can land you in jail (see story above). Amnmonites, on the other hand are fine. As long as you don't sell them. As for the Utah digging, I would look around the slopes you end up on for little pieces of ammonites in rock, or impressions thereof, and then try to find that layer in situ.

[FossilDAWG]

While we're on the subject, Forest Service land is another matter altogether. My understanding is that surface collecting of fossil invertebrates and plants, as well as mineral collecting, is permitted in some areas and not at all in others, more or less at the whim of the local forest service managers. Always best to check with the local office to see what is and what is not allowed. As is the case on BLM land, collecting vertebrate fossils, or making excavations of any nature, require a permit which you will only get if you can prove a valid research project associated with a museum or college, and collection for commercial purposes is absolutely forbidden.

Don

[Dogdare]

While I am a newbie, I do have a fair understanding of the Do's and Don'ts of fossils on BLM land. I've installed electronic topos on both my handheld GPS, and my tablet (which has GPS), both of which indicate BLM land, so I can know where I am and who's land I'm on.

I think a 7 year old and myself, digging at most for two days with hand tools and one regular sized spade, are probably in the clear. I recognize there's lots of room for interpretation in the BLM language "...either by surface collection or the use of non-powered hand tools resulting in only negligible disturbance to the Earth's surface and other resources" especially the phrase 'negigible disturbance'.

I will admit that I'm struggling to deconflict that guidance with what Don states '...or making excavations of any nature, require a permit...'.

Utah would be a fossil collector wasteland if you weren't allowed to colect any fossils on Government land, since most of Utah is Government land. Nice to see some balance between preservation of fossils and the personal collection of common fossils.

Herb

[Boneman007]

While I am a newbie, I do have a fair understanding of the Do's and Don'ts of fossils on BLM land. I've installed electronic topos on both my handheld GPS, and my tablet (which has GPS), both of which indicate BLM land, so I can know where I am and who's land I'm on.

I think a 7 year old and myself, digging at most for two days with hand tools and one regular sized spade, are probably in the clear. I recognize there's lots of room for interpretation in the BLM language "...either by surface collection or the use of non-powered hand tools resulting in only negligible disturbance to the Earth's surface and other resources" especially the phrase 'negigible disturbance'.

I will admit that I'm struggling to deconflict that guidance with what Don states '...or making excavations of any nature, require a permit...'.

Utah would be a fossil collector wasteland if you weren't allowed to colect any fossils on Government land, since most of Utah is Government land. Nice to see some balance between preservation of fossils and the personal collection of common fossils.

Herb

Its worse than that. No vertebrate fossils may be collected in Utah. period. Colorado is nearly as bad.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Boneman007

[Mr_ed]

Next month, my seven year old son and I will be digging for ammonites in Utah, in a general area that was provided to me.

That said, I want to make sure we're digging in the right 'layer'. Are there specific indicators that I should look for to point us to the correct geological layer to increase the odds of us finding some ammonites?

Herb

Hi Herb;

To get back to your original question... I hunt ammonites in a large limestone deposit. Where I hunt the main deposit is in the form of a cliff. I don't know what kind of terraine you are looking at.. anyway I find that it is not possible to find the layer because it is somewhwhere that it is not possible to get to. However the shale below the cliff has produced about 150 complete specimens for me in the last couple months. I find them anywhere on the slope where fragments of the cliff have rolled or fell to. They are not easy to find but they are there and the broken rock from the cliff is several feet deep so digging in the shale may be an option if that is allowed. I find that there are places that have more specimens than others, but I have not fount the layer because there are likely 1000 layers that I can't get to. Time piles samples up below the cliff .. you just have to pick through the rock to find them. I was lucky enough to be the first pig to the trough.

It's the most fun you can have without laughing, ... well maybe second most..

Cheers

Ed

[Mr_ed]

You should also be sure and take with you a good pair of leather gloves because limestone wears the skin off your fingers real fast. Goggles are also a must have.

Ed

[larry739]

Government Regs are really weird sometimes. Like I have never been given any trouble by LE when parked properly along a road cut and looking for specimens thinking road cuts were no problem until I happened on one where there were three signs going each way spelling out in great detail how it was illegal to collect any rocks or minerals from ANY road cut in the area. I have never seen these signs anywhere else. I also noticed a very solidly cemented in benchmark on the roadcut so I imagine the signs went up the same time as the bench mark. I was very nervous at this road cut and since it was just a few common crinoids I moved on. This was a lonely US highway and I did not see any LE while I was on this road. I subscribe to the school of its beeter to apologize than ask permission but considering how money hungry everyone is getting I may have to change to the ignorance of the law is no excuse philosophy.

[FossilForKids]

Dogdare......This is your lucky day! One, I live in Oxnard and two I just got back from digging for ammonites near Cowboy Pass in the confusion range in Millard County Utah two weeks ago. I don't have GPS but I can get you right to the spot where there are several layers and here is some of what you can find. Feel free to PM me and I'll give you exact directions. You can also come over and see what I just found there.

Edited May 31, 2013 by FossilForKids

[Dogdare]

Well, my son and I are back from our trip. We found trilobites (commercial quarries) and despite the fact I thought that we'd never find any ammonites, we did find some on BLM land. We found a small collection of ammonites (mostly still in various matrix), and what appear to be snails and various (clam?) shells. Nothing spectacular by any means, but exciting because my son and I found them.


I'll take a few pics of the ammonites, and if I get ambitious, at some point I'll try to remove some of ammonites from the matrix.


Herb

[erose]

Yay!