mattman10 Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Hi guys, this is my first post on the forum, hope you can help. I regularly purchase large quanitites of Spinosaurus teeth (for trade purposes) from various wholesalers, however I received one recently that caught my attention. The tooth in question has a definiate curviture and some very fine serrations. Now I know Spinosaurus teeth are neither curved or serrated, so I'm wondering what this tooth could be? I've purchased from this particular wholesaler for quite some time and, given its obviously been mistaken by those who collected it and subsequently those who sold it as a Spino tooth, I have no reason to believe it came from anywhere other than Morocco. My first thought was that it was a Suchomimus tooth (knowing they were curved/serrated, however I've never owned one myself), but from what I understand they are only found in Niger? Could anyone enlighten me as to a possible ID? I certainly won't be selling it as a Spino tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 It looks like a 'Deltadromeus'-type to me. If it is, then assigning a positive ID within the type with any certainty is not possible; much more work needs be done there! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman10 Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 It looks like a 'Deltadromeus'-type to me. If it is, then assigning a positive ID within the type with any certainty is not possible; much more work needs be done there! The tooth is quite bulky and peg-like (a lot like a Spinosaurus tooth). From what I understand Deltadromeus teeth are more blade-like? If it weren't for the curviture and tiny serrations, I wouldn't have doubted that it came from a Spino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Can you show it in cross-section? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Still a lot of undescribed dinosaurs from that region. However from what exists today I agree with Auspex and would lean toward Deltadromeus whose size would accommodate that tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman10 Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 Can you show it in cross-section? Here's a few more pictures. As you can see, it's very round in cross section, a lot like a Spino tooth. I should also point out that the serrations are very small - only just visible to the naked eye. The only thing that seems to come close to this are Suchomimus teeth. Delta teeth would be far more D-shaped in cross section, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 Yeah, too round... does it have one or two carina? Seems almost croc-like. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman10 Posted July 1, 2013 Author Share Posted July 1, 2013 Yeah, too round... does it have one or two carina? Seems almost croc-like. Yes, it does look somewhat croc-like. It has two carnia, but would you expect to see serrations on a crocodile tooth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Yes, it does look somewhat croc-like. It has two carnia, but would you expect to see serrations on a crocodile tooth? Not unheard of (especially from older strata); also on some mosasaurs. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulgdls Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) If it really does have denticles on the two carina then surely its a Suchomimus tooth. Even the largest Spinosaurus teeth that I have seen do not have serrations just the sharp carina. Paul Edited July 1, 2013 by paulgdls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Is there record of Suchomimus from Morocco (where it is supposed this tooth originated)? I am not suggesting that it isn't Suchomimus "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulgdls Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) Is there record of Suchomimus from Morocco (where it is supposed this tooth originated)? I am not suggesting that it isn't Suchomimus I've never heard of it from Morocco. Are there actual denticles on this tooth or is it just contorted enamel along the edge of the carina? This does occur on Spinosaurs teeth and its difficult to tell apart from genuine denticles. See photos of Baryonx denticles and large Spinosaurus tooth from Kem Kem showing the 'contorted' enamel. Let me know what you think. Paul Edited July 1, 2013 by paulgdls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Looks like a Pre-max tooth and I would still not rule out a Deltadromeus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman10 Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share Posted July 3, 2013 I've never heard of it from Morocco. Are there actual denticles on this tooth or is it just contorted enamel along the edge of the carina? This does occur on Spinosaurs teeth and its difficult to tell apart from genuine denticles. See photos of Baryonx denticles and large Spinosaurus tooth from Kem Kem showing the 'contorted' enamel. Let me know what you think. Paul Hi Paul Here's another picture, it may be a little clearer than the last. They definitely seem to be denticles, as opposed to contorted enamel. As for denticles on both carina, I can only make them out on one as the enamel has peeled away from the other side of the tooth (there may be faint traces, but I can't be sure). Also, I'm not sure whether it's important, but the carinae aren't quite parrallel with one another. Also, if it were a Deltadromeus premax, wouldn't the denticles be much larger? Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Look like serrations to me so its a theropod tooth. Are they along one of the corner edges of the D shape in the cross section view ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulgdls Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Matt Thanks for posting the clearer photo. I agree they are denticles and very fine ones at that, a la Suchomimus/Baryonyx. Did this tooth definitely come from Morocco? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman10 Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share Posted July 3, 2013 Matt Thanks for posting the clearer photo. I agree they are denticles and very fine ones at that, a la Suchomimus/Baryonyx. Did this tooth definitely come from Morocco? Paul I'm pretty sure it did. I bought the tooth along with several dozen Spinosaurus teeth from a well established wholesaler. I can't imagine why or how a tooth from another part of Africa would have made its way into a batch of Spinosaurus teeth from Morocco. I've gone through hundreds, may over a thousand, Spinosaurus teeth in the past, most purchased through wholesalers, and whilst I've found misplaced crocodile teeth thrown in here or there I've never come across anything like this. And yes, the denticles are located in the corners of the D shape in the cross section. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 It's definitely a theropod pre-max tooth if the serrations are at the edges. Good luck find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I know I've brought this up before, but identifying isolated teeth as Deltadromeus is preposterous, because the skull and dentition of Deltadromeus is unknown! Regarding Suchomimus v. Spinosaurus, keep in mind that they are very closely related animals. The only likely difference is size, and at that you're not going to be able to separate Suchomimus teeth from immature Spinosaurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down under fossil hunter Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Just found his post.... so sorry for the late reply. I am fortunate to have a few Suchomimus teeth in my collection and they do not look at all like your tooth, to start with they all have very prominent striations running from tip to base and are more oval in cross section than the circular Spinosaur teeth. Mine are from Niger though so the preservation is quite different to the teeth that are found in Morocco. I think your tooth looks very much like a Spinosaur tooth and that the irregularities are possibly an indication of pathology rather than a different species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Crocs were more diverse during the Cretaceous. Even well into the Eocene, there were crocs (xiphodont form) with serrated teeth. Yes, it does look somewhat croc-like. It has two carnia, but would you expect to see serrations on a crocodile tooth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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