Are We Running Out Of Quality Fossils?

[Carcharodontosaurus]

A year, two years or even three years back, we could see quality fossils for sale everywhere, whether it was at fossil shows or on the internet. Lots of nice dinosaur fossils, for example, were everywhere on eBay a couple of years back. But now, it seems that there are less.

Is this seasonal, or are we starting to run out of fossils? I am concerned that it might be the latter. CK-Preparations on eBay doesn't seem to be active at all anymore, and that dealer had many nice Hell Creek Formation fossils.

Is anyone as concerned as I am?

[Dave pom Allen]

no i am not worried.but quality fossils as you call them belong to the country of origin and its people and here in NZ we call them taonga (treasure)

but common fossils i believe can be traded

[Terry Dactyll]

I think experience has taught me the propper ' quality ' fossils always stay with the finders or serious collectors that found them...Its usually 2nd grade or 2nd choice specimens that are often available for sale.... with the internet and instant knowledge readily available for all maybe some of the fossil sites are drying up a little and this is reflected in whats available to buy on the internet... I have noticed a few UK fossil sites posting stuff for sale they wouldn't of dreamed of selling not so long ago...polished this and that etc....

[Trevor]

I think experience has taught me the propper ' quality ' fossils always stay with the finders or serious collectors that found them...Its usually 2nd grade or 2nd choice specimens that are often available for sale.... with the internet and instant knowledge readily available for all maybe some of the fossil sites are drying up a little and this is reflected in whats available to buy on the internet... I have noticed a few UK fossil sites posting stuff for sale they wouldn't of dreamed of selling not so long ago...polished this and that etc....

Agreed.

[bone2stone]

The present situation of exposures drying up is due primarily to more people out there collecting the well known areas.

New areas/exposures are out there just hidden by overburden..

I personally have seen several of my favorite sites here in Texas not just "drying up" but more in line with being covered up.

New construction has hidden some very productive sites that are lost forever.

We just need to be patient and persistent in our quest for that perfect fossil.

That "Museum quality" specimen is out there and we need to get out there and find it.

Jess B.

[Auspex]

There will always be much more "commodity" material on the open market than high-quality specimens (after all, "quality" is assessed by the comparison). There are a couple sources that consistently and reliably offer exceptional specimens, always at exceptional prices, but their client base is small, given the current economy. The depressed market has caused some investment-grade material to be held back, as prices are depressed in general.

[Fossildude19]

Have you seen our "Fossil of the Month" contests??

I'm not worried about this.

There are many qualitly fossils just waiting to be found.

Regards,

[Wrangellian]

I see lots of quality fossils on ebay and elsewhere - of course I'm more into the inverts/plants than the verts - but they always seem to fetch high prices. There may be a recession / depression in these prices but I hate to think of what they'd be without a recession! So I would chalk it up to there being more buyers because more people are into fossils, and therefore more picking over of the good collecting sites and the bottoms of barrels are being scraped. So the question for me is, Is the lack of new sites due to all the good ones have already been found or just that nobody bothers to put the effort into finding new sites? (Law of diminishing returns) Plus maybe new sites (and old ones threatened with overpicking) are being restricted to collectors more than before? ....or D) all of the above.

[AgrilusHunter]

This little guy was just purchased from FossilMall for $29,000. It is awfully nice though, if I had a spare $29,000 lying around I would likely spend it on this fossil too.

[Ridgehiker]

There's lots of good stuff to be collected...new sites to be found.

Because of restrictions on the export of Alberta Dino material, I don't keep any specimens unless they are unique or good quality.

More countries have restrictions on the export of fossils, artifacts, etc.

Anyways, vast majority of Dino fossils are mislabeled and fakes (claws, eggs). Lots of fake Chinese and Moroccan 'snarge'.

Much of Canada, Australia, China, etc. have laws and they are enforced.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

I see lots of quality fossils on ebay and elsewhere - of course I'm more into the inverts/plants than the verts - but they always seem to fetch high prices. There may be a recession / depression in these prices but I hate to think of what they'd be without a recession! So I would chalk it up to there being more buyers because more people are into fossils, and therefore more picking over of the good collecting sites and the bottoms of barrels are being scraped. So the question for me is, Is the lack of new sites due to all the good ones have already been found or just that nobody bothers to put the effort into finding new sites? (Law of diminishing returns) Plus maybe new sites (and old ones threatened with overpicking) are being restricted to collectors more than before? ....or D) all of the above.

My personal observation is that the number collectors is exploding due to ready internet access to information that used to take years to accumulate. Increased competition means well known sites and easy access sites are tapped out first at a rate faster than new ones surface. I'm starting to see regular sign of collecting deeper in the Texas outback, making it more difficult and expensive to experience the same level of collecting available just a few years ago.

Combine this with a legal climate that makes quarry operators and construction site managers litigation shy, and regular site closures are a common result. I've also seen a trend of various municipalities establishing green belts along a great number of stream courses, labeling them as city parks, and posting "No collecting anything of any kind" signs in areas that up until this time have been open to collecting. Increased restrictions resulting from updated state and federal laws puts a further squeeze on the collecting pursuit. "Pay to play" venues are on the increase, and some are quite spendy (Oligocene Badlands, Hell Creek, Niobrara Chalk leases), making top end collecting somewhat of an aristocratic pursuit within reach of most of us maybe once a year, at most.

So more people on fewer sites means that at some point in our lifetime, we may be comparing broken oysters, if we are still allowed to pick them up (tongue in cheek sarcasm intended). The truth of the matter is that we probably shouldn't dwell on how good it was 5-10 years ago, or 30 years ago as regaled by the old timers, because there is no reversing these trends, and we should count our blessings and be glad we don't live in a country where you could be arrested for collecting. Some day, 2013 will be considered "the good old days" by comparison.

Best plan is to know your local geology, keep your eyes open, keep exploring, and make friends with other motivated collectors for enjoyable reciprocal trips. By teaming up with collectors at the fringe of my travel range, we are able to treat each other to venues we might not find anytime soon individually.

[Wrangellian]

All true.

I don't readily show people my good sites, and when I do I usually ask them to not blab it around or it could end up as you describe.

[pinkpantherbeekeeper]

With eBay and other websites during the late 90's popping up, did you guys notice an increase in the availability of grade A specimens?

[Uncle Siphuncle]

I'd have to say that eBay had better specimens on average to peruse in years past. A few years back, I recall Vito Bertucci's collection being liquidating on eBay, resulting in a huge influx of Megs and proboscidean teeth. eBay seems to have recently adopted a policy that prevents sales of extinct elephant ivory, at least the domestic stuff, and this makes no sense to me since you can still buy the North Sea material on eBay. I had eBay try to block a sale of some Texas mammoth stuff recently...good thing I was quick to pay, and was able to contact the seller through Paypal.

Nate's stuff on eBay is always a satisfying look at FL material, but as for Texas, most of what I see currently on eBay is B grade stuff - worn NSR verts, phosphatic mollusk steinkerns, and mostly B grade, common ammonites and echinoids, including a deluge of overpriced ammonites with sub par prep work. I think that most serious Texas collectors keep, trade or donate the rare and better preserved stuff, so high grade items don't make it to eBay.

[Ridgehiker]

With eBay and other websites during the late 90's popping up, did you guys notice an increase in the availability of grade A specimens?

Interesting question. Like lots of fossil nuts, I collect everything. However, there seems to be be 4 major markets...Dino, Shark teeth, Trilobites and Ammonites (and kin).

Europeans are big ammonite collectors...they like good specimens but also the science. Quality less an issue than a unique species. A bit rather same with trilobites but quality pieces more the norm.. Dino 'stuff' is unique in that few collectors actually know the specimens..almost 'neat to have' because its Dino rather than being a tooth from a rare species of ceratopsian. Shark teeth seem in a category of their own...lots of knowledgeablle collectors...lots who both find their own specimens and trade and sell. I think eBay and the Internet had a huge impact...collectors much more involved and great specimens and knowledge shared.

Anyways, up here I collect Dino material and Paleozoic shark teeth. Few are interested in Dino material unless it 'looks good.' In contrast a shark tooth collector can get excited about a somewhat blah looking Devonian specimen. Bottom line, lots of quality shark teeth came on the market because they were appreciated by the shark tooth collecting community. Quality didn't always equate with visually appealing.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Ridgehiker

[Auspex]

..as for Texas, most of what I see currently on eBay is B grade stuff - worn NSR verts, phosphatic mollusk steinkerns, and mostly B grade, common ammonites and echinoids...

If all I had to judge by was what's being offered on ebay, I'd think that all the fossils in Texas were badly worn B and C grade. Same for many other areas. There is some exceptional material being offered on ebay, by a handful of exceptional sellers, but frankly the auctions are mostly for low-grade (and worse) fossils.

[Wrangellian]

Crinoids and certain other echinoderms sell well too, as do things from exceptional sites like the Burgess/Chengjiang/Ediacaran stuff (all the stuff I'm interested in, so naturally the prices go out of my range!).

Edited August 25, 2013 by Wrangellian

[Carcharodontosaurus]

There's lots of good stuff to be collected...new sites to be found.

Because of restrictions on the export of Alberta Dino material, I don't keep any specimens unless they are unique or good quality.

More countries have restrictions on the export of fossils, artifacts, etc.

Anyways, vast majority of Dino fossils are mislabeled and fakes (claws, eggs). Lots of fake Chinese and Moroccan 'snarge'.

Much of Canada, Australia, China, etc. have laws and they are enforced.

I sort of disagree there. A lot of eggs, skeletons and claws are fake, but I would be surprised to find a totally fake small Spinosaurus or small raptor tooth. Most of the small dinosaur teeth like Spinosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus and raptor are real, it's the very large teeth you need to be wary of.

Mislabled teeth are sold all the time, with Spinosaurus teeth being sold as Suchomimus teeth being a common example. But at the same time there are a lot of teeth that are pretty easy to identify. For example, Tyrannosaurus is the only large carnivore in the Hell Creek Formation (unless you count Nanotyrannus, which could easily be a juvenile rex), so if you have a tooth or fragment of a theropod tooth from Hell Creek that is too big to come from raptors, it's pretty safe to say you have a rex tooth. An example is the rex tooth fragment I added to my gallery.

And Danwoehr, I have to agree that the no extinct ivory rule on eBay makes no sense at all. It's pretty uneccesary, since mammoths died out 10,000 years ago and are therefore not a protected species. I can understand why they wouldn't allow ivory from elephants, but no mammoth ivory seems like a pointless regulation.

[Ridgehiker]

Carch...you are right...I should have specified claws and eggs. However, lots misidentified. As for T Rex teeth...unless one finds it oneself or has a trustworthy source then how does one know it came from the Hell Creek Formation.? Some so called Montana material is actually Oldman Formation material from Alberta or Judith River. I don't buy or sell fossils but look at some of the Hell Creek material sold on Ebay and think 'hmmmm, I don't think so'.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ridgehiker

[fossilcrazy]

I'm always scanning the market for affordable fossils. Ebay has taken a downside. Some of my favorite sellers have been idol for a long time. Probably from not getting what they figured on. Outside continental US, has had some good offerings but shipping, customs and reputability is always a concern. Dealers at MAPS can produce some bargains, but I find that's at times just to produce enough income to cover expenses. That can't keep on for long. I let the bigger fish play with the investment grade fossils. If I had money to burn, I could play that game too.

Edited August 26, 2013 by fossilcrazy

[Wrangellian]

I still see stuff on ebay that I want but the prices always go high (unless I don't bid on them, in which case they go for a song!).. I seem to recall things generally going for less in years past. That might be an indication of the supply going down and the demand going up...?

[Auspex]

A rise in demand is all that is needed.

[Ridgehiker]

I'm not familiar with fossil prices but do collect used guitars. A big unknown variable is the Chinese market. Certain guitars, for whatever reason, are popular among the Chinese. They snap them up. This has boosted prices and reduced availability for some models. I wonder if certain types of fossil specimens are, or will have a market in Asia. Anyways it would be interesting to know if fossil collecting is much of a hobby in China. Perhaps in China there is someone with a room like mine...guitars on one side and fossils on the other.

1.3 billion population. If one in a million Chinese gets interested in fossils as collectables then that's 1300 keeners.

[jpc]

Is this seasonal, or are we starting to run out of fossils? I am concerned that it might be the latter. CK-Preparations on eBay doesn't seem to be active at all anymore, and that dealer had many nice Hell Creek Formation fossils.

Is anyone as concerned as I am?

Lots of interesting points here. I think the bottom line is that there are still tons of interesting fossils out there, but a lot more people interested. If you are basing your premise on the fact that CK doesn't have much of a presence online, that's just one little data point. It doesn't mean anything. Maybe they have been too busy with the fighting dinos.

[Missourian]

Some local 'anecdotes' pertaining to the matter....

- The fossil offerings of the Pennsylvanian formations around Kansas City are just sparse enough to 'fly under the radar', as far as the potential collecting hordes go. I kind of like it this way, but I would still like to have a couple prime spots here and there....

- The KC area had a 'golden fossil age' from the 1960s through the 1980s when the interstate system and several other large highways were constructed. I got in on the tail end of it during the late 80s and early 90s. The cuts are mostly still there, but they are a bit long in the tooth.

- The number of collectors may be higher now than 20 years ago, but the newer collectors may or may not know all the ins and outs of the various formations.

- A well-known site that always produces gastropods was recently 'hunted' in a 'wholesale' manner (i.e. trenches dug along the productive horizon). The last time I went, I didn't find too many fossils. I'm not sure if this was a one-time thing, or if that is to be expected from now on.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Missourian