John Hamilton Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I found these teeth in my Lee Creek matrix and need help with ID's if possible. The fish tooth is like none that I have previously found from this site. The shark tooth looks very similar to a Cetorhinus Parvus tooth. Thanks in advance for your help. 1. 4 mm long fish tooth 2. 2 mm wide shark tooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 John 1. Maybe a piece of a porcupinefish mouth plate. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 John, number 1 could well be as Marco suggests, or possibly a plate from a similar typed fish. Number 2 does look similar to C. parvus tooth shown on Elasmo, but I do not think that is what you have. I believe you have some type of Alopias with a worn/broken root. Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hamilton Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 John, number 1 could well be as Marco suggests, or possibly a plate from a similar typed fish. Number 2 does look similar to C. parvus tooth shown on Elasmo, but I do not think that is what you have. I believe you have some type of Alopias with a worn/broken root. Don, Sorry for taking so long respond but I have been away from the computer for a while. Number 1 doesn't look like any of the puffer/porcupine mouth plates I find. It is the largest of several teeth I have found in the current batch of matrix I am searching. They all have the same texture on the enamel but are all shaped differently I'll try to post pictures of the other teeth later this evening. The crown on Number 2 does not resemble any of the Alopias I've collected so I still holding out for C. Parvus as the ID on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 John, I have not heard of C. parvus from Lee Creek. I have only found a record of one confirmed tooth found in the US, in the Oligocene of SC, while teeth from the Oligocene of Belgium and the Netherlands seem to be while uncommon, not rare. I also found where a partial skeleton was found from the Oligocene of Germany. As far as the mouthplate, I was thinking of a porcupine like fish. But it could also be some type of drum like fish. There are many many undetermined fish teeth that are found in the reject material. Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Don, Number 1 doesn't look like any of the puffer/porcupine mouth plates I find. It is the largest of several teeth I have found in the current batch of matrix I am searching. They all have the same texture on the enamel but are all shaped differently I'll try to post pictures of the other teeth later this evening. John Your specimen1 is an individual tooth from the dentition of a burrfish. A burrfish or spiny boxfish is a member of the porcupinefish family Diodontidae. See the photos below of a Lee Creek specimen. The individual teeth can really vary in shape in both the upper and lower jaws. The dentitions also vary in color in the fossil specimens that I have from the Lee Creek mine. You can find complete jaws, complete dentitions or just an individual tooth from the dentition. Marco Sr. 2 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 John, I have not heard of C. parvus from Lee Creek. I have only found a record of one confirmed tooth found in the US, in the Oligocene of SC, while teeth from the Oligocene of Belgium and the Netherlands seem to be while uncommon, not rare. I also found where a partial skeleton was found from the Oligocene of Germany. Don Cetorhinus sp. are rare from the east coast of the US including maximus. However, I have personally seen Cetorhinus sp. specimens from the Eocene of VA and have personally collected specimens from the Miocene of MD. Also I have a friend in CA who has found a good number of Miocene Cetorhinus which several CA museums have said to him compare favorably to C. parvus. So I wouldn't rule out C. parvus completely from the Miocene of the east coast of the US although they would be extremely rare. John If you can take a profile view of your tooth that could really help with the id. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hamilton Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 John Your specimen1 is an individual tooth from the dentition of a burrfish. A burrfish or spiny boxfish is a member of the porcupinefish family Diodontidae. See the photos below of a Lee Creek specimen. The individual teeth can really vary in shape in both the upper and lower jaws. The dentitions also vary in color in the fossil specimens that I have from the Lee Creek mine. You can find complete jaws, complete dentitions or just an individual tooth from the dentition. Burrfish1 30mm.jpgBurrfish2.jpgBurrfish3.jpg Marco Sr. Marco, Thanks for posting these photos! This specimen is larger and better preserved than any I have found. It definitely removes all doubt from my mind as to the ID of the fish tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hamilton Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 Don Cetorhinus sp. are rare from the east coast of the US including maximus. However, I have personally seen Cetorhinus sp. specimens from the Eocene of VA and have personally collected specimens from the Miocene of MD. Also I have a friend in CA who has found a good number of Miocene Cetorhinus which several CA museums have said to him compare favorably to C. parvus. So I wouldn't rule out C. parvus completely from the Miocene of the east coast of the US although they would be extremely rare. John If you can take a profile view of your tooth that could really help with the id. Marco Sr. Marco, I'll try to post medial and distal views later this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hamilton Posted October 20, 2013 Author Share Posted October 20, 2013 Here are some mesial and distal views of the tooth I think is a C. parvus. Hopefully these will help to get a conclusive ID for this tooth. mesial view 1 mesial view 2 distal view 1 distal view 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 John The pictures that you added definitely show more detail. Mesial view 2 seems to show distinct ridges. I have seen ridges like that on C. maximus teeth but they were on the labial face. Distal view 2 seems to show a flat almost concave labial face. Cetorhinus have a convex labial face. According to Cappetta an origin from a primitive stock close to Alopias seems highly probably for Cetorhinus judging by tooth morphology of early Miocene species. So if your tooth is Cetorhinus similarity to Alopias wouldn’t be unexpected. I see features that compare favorably to C. parvus. But also see some other features that make me question that id. Hopefully Jess or Al Dente will weigh in on the id of this tooth. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Here's my two cents on C. parvus (now Keasius parvus) from Lee Creek. Cappetta says C. parvus ranged from Oligocene through Miocene with fossil C. maximus being found in Pliocene. Bruce Welton has a similar range for K. parvus and has C. maximus appearing in the Late Miocene. I have found several gill rakers and they all came from the Miocene Pungo River Formation. If gill rakers are there, teeth should be there too and I would assume they would look like other Atlantic Miocene teeth which would be K. parvus. In other words they should look more like small Alopias teeth than C. maximus teeth. The one problem with this is Purdy published a tooth from the Pungo (unit 3) that he describe as being similar to C. maximus. The picture is not very good and to my eyes doesn't look like either K. parvus or C. maximus. I think John's fossil could be K. parvus but I'm not confident in that identification. When we were allowed to collect in the mine I would bring home a lot of Pungo sand to screen. I found several teeth that looked like tiny Alopias teeth. I had to rule out K. parvus on all of them because they all had a very faint nutrient groove. Teeth found in reject material are abraded and I doubt that this feature would survive on a tooth making correct identification difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 The tooth in question looks very similar to tiny Alopias teeth I find at Calvert Cliffs. The shape/size of the crown reminds me of the A. superciliosus teeth I have found. Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 The tooth in question looks very similar to tiny Alopias teeth I find at Calvert Cliffs. The shape/size of the crown reminds me of the A. superciliosus teeth I have found. Daryl. Daryl If you can, enlarge mesial view 2 of the tooth and look at the ridges or wrinkles on the crown. The picture does show what looks like root damage but the ridges/wrinkles clearly are a crown feature. I have a very large number of Alopias from a lot of different sites and just don't recall seeing ridges or wrinkles on any of them. I have seen that feature on Cetorhinus maximus teeth before. Do any of your Calvert Cliff Alopias teeth have that feature? Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hamilton Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 Daryl If you can, enlarge mesial view 2 of the tooth and look at the ridges or wrinkles on the crown. The picture does show what looks like root damage but the ridges/wrinkles clearly are a crown feature. I have a very large number of Alopias from a lot of different sites and just don't recall seeing ridges or wrinkles on any of them. I have seen that feature on Cetorhinus maximus teeth before. Do any of your Calvert Cliff Alopias teeth have that feature? Marco Sr. Thanks Marco. You asked the same question I was going to ask. I haven't been able to find any examples of Alopias that match this tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hamilton Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 Here's my two cents on C. parvus (now Keasius parvus) from Lee Creek. Cappetta says C. parvus ranged from Oligocene through Miocene with fossil C. maximus being found in Pliocene. Bruce Welton has a similar range for K. parvus and has C. maximus appearing in the Late Miocene. I have found several gill rakers and they all came from the Miocene Pungo River Formation. If gill rakers are there, teeth should be there too and I would assume they would look like other Atlantic Miocene teeth which would be K. parvus. In other words they should look more like small Alopias teeth than C. maximus teeth. The one problem with this is Purdy published a tooth from the Pungo (unit 3) that he describe as being similar to C. maximus. The picture is not very good and to my eyes doesn't look like either K. parvus or C. maximus. I think John's fossil could be K. parvus but I'm not confident in that identification. When we were allowed to collect in the mine I would bring home a lot of Pungo sand to screen. I found several teeth that looked like tiny Alopias teeth. I had to rule out K. parvus on all of them because they all had a very faint nutrient groove. Teeth found in reject material are abraded and I doubt that this feature would survive on a tooth making correct identification difficult. The tooth in question looks very similar to tiny Alopias teeth I find at Calvert Cliffs. The shape/size of the crown reminds me of the A. superciliosus teeth I have found. Daryl. Daryl If you can, enlarge mesial view 2 of the tooth and look at the ridges or wrinkles on the crown. The picture does show what looks like root damage but the ridges/wrinkles clearly are a crown feature. I have a very large number of Alopias from a lot of different sites and just don't recall seeing ridges or wrinkles on any of them. I have seen that feature on Cetorhinus maximus teeth before. Do any of your Calvert Cliff Alopias teeth have that feature? Marco Sr. Here are some Belgian teeth identified as C. parvus and my tooth matches up fairly well with these specimens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adron Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 hello, here is an other example of a parvus that I found in my matrix of Antwerp (Belgium). They are extremely rare here. greetings Aaron Nullus finis longius si quod facis delectaris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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