Engstedt Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) Hello! Very nice forum you have here! Looks like my kind of place! I just been offered to buy a complete skull of a crocodile. From an antique store. They go to Java, indonesia now and then and pick up nice things to sell in sweden. Fossils of course. They have a lot of various fossils, from hippopotamous jaws to stegodon teeth and tusks. AND they have a massive crocodile skull. I found it fascinating... Complete with no damages, still some sandstone left, in its mouth (thats whats holding the jaws up). I googled the Sangiran area and it seems that they have found crocodiles there.. http://cempaka-nature.blogspot.se/2007/04/prehistoric-crocodile-fossil-found-in.html It looks like the one on display on Sangiran Museum on link below. http://www.jakpost.travel/stories/photos/b5Me9F4DjByrvm2Q/3?ac=96dfd73d0a66808d2194df04c21feece I only took a bad iphone picture for you to look at. What do you think of it? Rare? Edited October 10, 2013 by Engstedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Engstedt, there are some fakes being offered for sale which are claimed to be from Indonesia. Could you give me details of who the seller was, screen name, email address? Please send to me in a personal message. Rich The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 Hello Rich! Ok! Im not sure how thats going to help. The store owner says its real, bought it from a local that provides him with a LOT of authentic fossils from the sangiran area. It sure looks real. The nose cavity even have a lot of small pebbles in it. The one that were found in 2007 were thought to be from pleistocene. Do you have any insights how many crocodylus skulls that have been found in the area? If its real, what could the marken value (to the right buyer) be? Best regards, Engstedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Engstedt, valuation of fossils is not something we encourage at TFF. If you do a couple of web searches for "Crocodile skull" Pleistocene or "Crocodile skull" fossil, you can see what people are asking for similar fossils. ...It would not be cheap. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 John! Sorry for that, i will have a look at posting rules. I just want to get info of how rare this is. And also be more sure that its not a fake. (Even though im quite sure its real). Rich, could you give me more info about the fake ones you seen, perhaps also with pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 Also, would the fact that it still have sand stone in some cavities make it less desirable? Or is it a not that of a difficult job for a proffesional to carry out? Or perhaps just leave it as it is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Having matrix (sandstone, pebbles, etc.) in various places does not ensure authenticity. It can be easily fabricated to look real. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 Ok, I understand that. Could you give me some tips on checking its authenticy? Weight? Its heavy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Your best option would be to find an experienced vertebrate fossil collector in your area to evaluate its authenticity first hand. There are no simple recipes to determine if this item is a genuine fossil. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 (edited) Engstedt, John is right, the best would be to have someone knowledgable take a look it in in person. I was just cautioning you that I have seen recently at least two completely fake croc skulls from Indonesia being passed off as real online. Here are pictures of one of the fakes: Edited October 11, 2013 by RichW9090 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike from North Queensland Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 Rich Not having the best knowledge of anatomy my self I have picked out a few indicators from your photos where it is obvious that the photos you have supplied are of a fake skull. But a list from a more expert person like yourself would be interesting. My start would be the positioning of the rear teeth. Eye sockets positioned for looking into the sky. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 Rich, thanks for the warning. Its sad that copies are circulating.. I was by the fossil today and took some pictures with a good (or at least better) camera. Will upload later if you guys have interest in it. I also put the fossil on a scale. It weighed 33 kgs. (73 pounds) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I cannot tell you if this skull is real but will make the following observations. The rear top of the skull with the two openings appears to have been restored. The lines are too clean and the texture/color is different than the rest of the skull. The teeth also appear to have been reinstalled in the jaw. Cannot say if they were the orginial to the skull. I would also echo what others have said to have an expert look at it if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 The matrix in the nasal opening is clearly a recent addition, with the little pebbles all so carefully fitted in. The appears to be a lot of restoration, in both he upper and the lower jaw. I'm seeing red flags all over the place. Rich The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 (edited) I cannot tell you if this skull is real but will make the following observations. The rear top of the skull with the two openings appears to have been restored. The lines are too clean and the texture/color is different than the rest of the skull. The teeth also appear to have been reinstalled in the jaw. Cannot say if they were the orginial to the skull. I would also echo what others have said to have an expert look at it if possible. Hello Troodon, Thanks for replying. The rear top looks like others i have seen, like this one also from Indonesia. Perhaps teeth have been reinstalled. I dont know how to see that. Yes, i have to find an expert, problem is where! I hope that someone on this forum have not seen it yet and could tell me more. http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17535/lot/2454/ (Possible to zoom in) The matrix in the nasal opening is clearly a recent addition, with the little pebbles all so carefully fitted in. The appears to be a lot of restoration, in both he upper and the lower jaw. I'm seeing red flags all over the place. Rich Rich, thanks for answering. Why would Matrix of pebbles be inserted by someone? Isnt it possible that stones could fit in the opening in sandstone? I would try to find an expert, as you all are advising me to do. Is your opinion that its a real skull but with lots of restoration? Can you say something about the last pictures with other fossils? Best regards Edited October 12, 2013 by Engstedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 And excuse me for My poor species knowledge, I am a marine biologist.. Are we talking about the living fossil crocodylus porosus here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 There are a numberof different crocs known from those Indonesian sites, and somebody recently published a review of two of the species, but I can't find the reference right now. I just urge caution with buying this fossil, as there are some concerns with restoration, etc. The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Hi Engstedt, If the teeth were part of that particular skull, they should all show the same level of preservation and be about the same color. A few of the teeth are noticeably more brightly-colored. It's possible that the teeth were all found in the same deposit but probably not all from that individual crocodile. The skull and jaws probably had empty sockets or some badly-damaged teeth so the preparator removed the bad ones and plugged in better ones. If you are serious about buying a fossil skull like that, you should familiarize yourself with a modern one first. You should learn to recognize a fake shape from one that has been naturally-distorted. Look at the natural contours of the modern one. See if there are any sudden breaks in the texture or in the pattern of ornamentation in the fossil. You might even invest in a quality skull cast. You should at least look for good books/publications on modern/extinct crocodiles from that area. You might not be able to find a croc expert. You might have to try to become your own expert. Hello Troodon,Thanks for replying. The rear top looks like others i have seen, like this one also from Indonesia. Perhaps teeth have been reinstalled. I dont know how to see that. Yes, i have to find an expert, problem is where! I hope that someone on this forum have not seen it yet and could tell me more.http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17535/lot/2454/(Possible to zoom in) Rich, thanks for answering. Why would Matrix of pebbles be inserted by someone? Isnt it possible that stones could fit in the opening in sandstone?I would try to find an expert, as you all are advising me to do.Is your opinion that its a real skull but with lots of restoration?Can you say something about the last pictures with other fossils?Best regards 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engstedt Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Thanks for the answers. I Will have to become My own expert as you say siteseer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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