Have We Found A Lower Jurassic Dinosaur?

[Welsh Wizard]

Hi

Me and my brother are hoping that we've found a dinosaur.

It was found in Lower Jurassic marine deposits in the UK. The age of the deposits are Hettangian and we think it's from the Psiloceras Planorbis zone, which is almost at the base of the Jurassic.

I've posted a thread on the UK Fossil Forum here:

http://www.discussfossils.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5455&title=lavernock-point-dinosaur

The important picture so far is this one:

It shows what I think is a line of tail verts, with some neurals broken of and some still buried under the matrix. At first I thought they might be plesiosaur phlanages but they were with some long bones that looked like land animal bones.

I think the large flat bone that I have partly uncovered is the animal's pelvis.

To give you an idea of scale, the verts are about an inch long.

Land animals in this deposit are virtually unheard of. My hope is that it is a dinosaur, but a crocodile is another possibility. Again crocodiles from these deposits are unheard of, so that'd be great as well.

If anyone has any thoughts then I'd really like to hear from them. I've spent most of the week on the internet researching this as I have virtually no knowledge of dinosaur anatomy. What I have found out is that if it is an animal, especially a dinosaur, then it is extremely rare.

Thanks

Nick

[fossilized6s]

Im not an expert and i sadly can't identify your find. But from what you have said i think a big congratulations is in order! Great find! I'm anxiously awaiting further news, information, confirmation and pictures!

[Xiphactinus]

They are definitely bones! Do you have a size scale? (EDIT: Missed the size that they are about an inch long.)

Seems tiny for dino....I'll leave the ID to the experts from that formation. Regardless, congrats on the find!

Edited March 10, 2014 by Xiphactinus

[Down under fossil hunter]

I would have guessed plesiosaur too but I am no expert.

Great find either way, I hope you get a positive id!

[Welsh Wizard]

Hi Charlie

Thanks for the comments. We've got our fingers crossed

Xiphactinus

I sure appreciate your thoughts. If it is a dino, then its about the size of a large dog - not like a t-rex.

DU Fossil Hunter

Thanks for the encouragement. It does look like plesiosaur phlanges but I'm convinced they are verts. I could be wrong and I am getting it prepped soon to find out.

Best regards

Nick

[Ludwigia]

I've been following this in the UK forum as well and am really curious to hear what it is in the end. Sorry that I can't help, since I'm not a bone man.

[Taogan]

It needs to be prepped, what I can see is too ambiguous, all I can make out is that it is reptile bone. It could be Plesiosaur or it could be something else. Even if it is turns out to be Plesiosaur it is something special, most people only ever get Ichthyosaur from Lavernock.

[Welsh Wizard]

Hi Roger

Please keep following the posts. I posted it here to see if any of the US dino experts had any thoughts, as it would be a late triassic/early jurassic form.

Hi Taogan

Yes I agree. If it's plesiosaur parts, it's still rare but I'm starting to doubt my own convictions. I'm still hoping its dino/land animal and I guess I'll soon find out as I'm going to get one of the pieces prepped out and see.

I'm sure that piece is part of a tail, along with part of a pelvis, but I'm happy to be proved wrong as I'm a Chemical Engineer not a Palaeontologist.

I think I'm getting too excited about this

Nick

[Kosmoceras]

Whatever this turns out to be, it is a great find. Continuing to follow with anticipation....

All the best,

[Opisthotriton]

Well, it's certainly a great fossil, but we'll need larger pictures in more views, with a scale bar, to be able to say anything more. The flat "pelvic" bone looks especially interesting. Take lots of pictures during the prep process! We look forward to seeing more of it!

[Welsh Wizard]

Hi

Just a quick update.

We've done some prep and its not a plesiosaur. Looking like a land animal. Lower Jurassic, Hettangian. Gotta be someone out there who knows this period and itd be good to have some thoughts.

All the best

Nick

[Auspex]

Pretty exciting! I hope it pans out

[DE&i]

Would it be time to think outside the box Nick. Have you checked the paleoenvironments , changinging sea levels of the area etc.

Regards

Darren.

[Taogan]

You will probably have to show the actual specimen, who have you shown it to already? I know that most the guys at the National Museum of Wales are invert. specialists, you might have to take it to somewhere like the Sedgwick in Cambridge to find a specialist.

[Welsh Wizard]

Thanks Auspex. It's certainly exciting. We are really pleased with this find.

Hi Darren

It's a marine environment, definitely Hettangian, in fact the ichthyosaur that I posted a while ago came from about 4 meters away.......horizontally. There are oysters in the rock and it's well before the appearance of gryphaea and it's above the rhaetic bone beds. There are some footprints that have been found just down the coast and I know of one other dino bone (a centrum) that comes out of the area. The others I've seen have come from the Rhaetic deposits.

Here's a good paper that shows how rare dino finds from the marine lower jurassic of the UK are.

http://darrennaish.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/martill-et-al-2006-dinosaurs-in-marine-strata-and-review-kimmeridge-clay-formation-dinosaurs-from-uk.pdf

Hi Taogan

Photos have been shown to a couple of museums and they are sitting on the fence until it's been prepped. We've prepped two of the blocks so far and I've sent photographs to one expert for their thoughts.

It's only a small animal, probably about the size of a sheep dog and what we've got is scattered.

I'm still hoping it's a dinosaur. It's not a plesiosaur and it's unlikely to be a crocodile, which makes it a land animal of some sort.

Nick

[Scylla]

Too old to be a sea otter I hope this is a dinosaur, but did the experts give you any advice on which bones would be diagnostic (skull of course, but which others). I know if that fossil was here, the local experts would CT scan it and 3d reconstruct it rather than prep it out.

[rylawz]

Not many vertebrate people on this forum. I would help u out but I know very little about dinosaurs.

[Welsh Wizard]

Hi Scylla

Not much advice from experts yet.

We are only prepping one side with air abraders. The bone is in really soft crumbly shale which sits on hard limestone. We decided to prepare from the shale side and I guess it could go in a CT scale after to have a look at any bones that go into the hard rock.

Funny thing is, when you mention dinosaurs, people immediately think of the huge articulated skeletons, not the little ones

Nick

[Scylla]

What good is having experts if they don't share their expertise? Haha.

[Auspex]

Not many vertebrate people on this forum...

I think that Lower Jurassic Small Dinosaurs is probably a fairly rare specialty...they're not the sort of thing one comes across very often!

[JeanB]

Very exciting discussion to follow!

Jean

[jpc]

I would love to see more pix. And better without the moistness. I am one of the vert people on this forum. For now I see plesiosaur paddle bones more than verts.

[Welsh Wizard]

Very exciting discussion to follow!

Jean

Thanks Jean. It is pretty exciting.

I would love to see more pix. And better without the moistness. I am one of the vert people on this forum. For now I see plesiosaur paddle bones more than verts.

Hi JPC

Definitely not plesiosaur bones - we uncovered some more and it is a sacral vert showing on the right and three tail verts on the left. We've uncovered another sacral and the process that goes with it. I've had two blocks prepped now and they are looking promising, but I've agreed that I'd wait until it was complete before posting any more pictures. I must admit, I had no idea what a sacral vertebrae was 2 days ago.

Thanks

Nick

[Welsh Wizard]

Hi all

We've uncovered a claw with a "blood groove". It's looking likely to be a dino!

We are so chuffed.

Pictures will follow soon.

Nick

[Auspex]

Bloody good!!!