Auspex Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Thanks for the reasoning; it is compelling. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleoDirect Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The problem with all this rampant fraud in the fossil trade is that it gives the scientific community and the government, even more reason not to take amateurs or commercial paleontology seriously. Frankly, it makes the entire commercial branch of paleontology look like its run by criminals and the belief that all are guilty even though we know that is not true. In many other areas of collectibles, there are organizations and guilds that vehemently police their members against wrong-doing. For instance, in the Indian artifact market in the US where fraud is a HUGE problem, there is the AACA and they police and "out" any member who is a party to fraud. In paleontology, we have NOTHING like this except for the AAPS which claims their members adhere to strict ethics. Both of the dealers referenced in this thread earlier on, who are guilty of selling the fake skulls, are AAPS members and so it shows how much being a member of the AAPS is important. There really should be a dedicated organization that self-polices members and is not afraid to bring up issues when the evidence is so overwhelmingly damning. A Better Business Bureau of sorts, of the paleontology trade, would be a possible template to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carcharodontosaurus Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I'm half tempted to duplicate these horrible fakes by creating the same matrix but adding things like old calculators/cellphones and call them Mid-Holocene. mikey Why not stick a bunch of dyed modern bones and fossil bones together into crazy hybrid animals, such as a large lizard with the head of a ferret, and claim they're fossils from the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrian Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 A seller's description states: "These cones are found in River Terrace Bog Deposits. They are found carbonized and have to be frozen after being found so they don't disintegrate.. they are then saturated with a thin Paleobond for stabilization. They are set into a conglomerate matrix and display very nicely!" Is this not plausible? I do agree that embedding them in artificial matrix is (to me) undesirable. Can you PM me the url? I'm curious to see it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The ironic thing is that the locality of the matrix, Coldwater Creek, MO, is loaded with Pleistocene wood and often real carbonized pine cones. They look nothing like those I the photos, however. When we find them, they are wet and tightly closed. They open as they dry and are very, very fragile. I soak them in dilute vinac so they don't disintegrate. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Thanks, X-man, for the first-hand-experience post. You've specifically addressed the material, not the purveyor. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Hey, about the wet pinecones. Do you put them in vinac wet, or do you have to dry them first? I have a wet, very old pinecone that I'm afraid may already be dust, but I want to know for next time. Also, what do you dilute the vinac with? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Scylia- I let them dry very, very well. I make a dilute mixture of vinac. You thin it with acetone. I usually just fill a small plastic bowl with enough to cover the cones, put the dried cones in it and wait for all the bubbles to stop. Then remove and let dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeymig Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 Thanks X. I have a cone I collected from a mammoth site here in NY. The wood from this site was sent out to be aged and it came back at 40,000 years. Mikey Many times I've wondered how much there is to know. led zeppelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleoDirect Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Carbonized organic remains from long ago are definitely in existence. The original point of my post was to show where it opens the door for fraudulent pieces. Here is a piece we found years ago in Germany. The layer was Jurassic and when we split the rock on the ammonite layer, it had a piece of fossil wood in an sealed pocked in the rock. It was extremely fragile, NOT mineralized to make it hard. www.paleodirect.com/amx-042.htm. We had to soak it in cyanoacrylate otherwise, it would have simply blown away. This is 200 million year carbonized remains! Amazingly old yet not mineralized. Nearby where this piece was found, we dug another that had an ammonite that had been fossilized, pressed against another piece of wood in antiquity, but the wood did not survive, only the impression but with mineral pigment. That piece can be seen here www.paleodirect.com/am-006.htm. Prehistoric (over 10K yrs) organic remains that are STILL organic, are in numerous types of life-forms. But, bring an extra measure of caution when buying a fossil of this type since it could be easily faked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 ...Both of the dealers referenced in this thread earlier on, who are guilty of selling the fake skulls, are AAPS members... How does one "file charges" with the AAPS for ethics code violations? If the allegations brought forth in this topic are true, then these members are certainly guilty of at least knowing misrepresentation, a violation of item seven of their code: LINK "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleoDirect Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) How does one "file charges" with the AAPS for ethics code violations? If the allegations brought forth in this topic are true, then these members are certainly guilty of at least knowing misrepresentation, a violation of item seven of their code: LINK This subject has been brought up with the board of the AAPS several times over the years and they have chosen not to enforce it in instances where they fear a lawsuit by the party or parties who are in question. The AAPS is more of a brotherhood of sorts as well as a lobbying group. Unfortunately, they really do not exist with an emphasis on fraud in the trade. Here is the opening quote from their home page. The AAPS fills an important role nevertheless, but with emphasis on ethics in COLLECTING, that is, not going to out on protected lands (foreign or domestic) and illegally harvesting fossils. "The Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences, formerly the "American Association of Paleontological Suppliers" was organized to create a professional association of commercial fossil and mineral collectors and preparators for the purpose of promoting ethical collecting practices and cooperative liaisons with researchers, instructors, curators and exhibit managers in the academic and museum paleontological community." Edited June 14, 2014 by PaleoDirect.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Well I certainly understand the chilling effect of the threat of lawsuit. Still, I propose that they have just cause (with no basis for litigation) to revoke the membership of anyone who violates their code (which all members must sign). "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I agree, but winning in court still is expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I agree, but winning in court still is expensive We're talking about the revocation of a membership in an association...how could this possibly wind up in even arbitration, much less in court? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 We're talking about the revocation of a membership in an association...how could this possibly wind up in even arbitration, much less in court? Well I certainly understand the chilling effect of the threat of lawsuit. Still, I propose that they have just cause (with no basis for litigation) to revoke the membership of anyone who violates their code (which all members must sign). I was responding to your comment regarding a lawsuit. Lawsuits are often decided in court, and even if you win, you will face costs, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I have contacted AAPS to give them an opportunity to reply to this thread if they wish. Rich The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Welcome back, Rich. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeymig Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Rich, If they need a name I have no problem supplying them with it. I'm glad I got some of you fired up about this issue and it's nice to know that others feel the way I do. The fossil forum not only motivates me in the field to share what I find, aides in identification of certain finds, and now its an advocate for responsible/respectable fossil collectors. Thanks everyone, Mikey Many times I've wondered how much there is to know. led zeppelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneJungle Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Greetings all, Richard White informed me of the discussion and I would like to reply to a few of the posts. Complaints against AAPS members can be made by email and sent to me at; george@stonejungle.com. AAPS does investigate all complaints, and when there is a substantiated claim, the member in question is dropped from our membership. A number of members have been recently dropped for selling fossils from Mongolia. AAPS staff does not monitor web sites, and we rely on notification from individuals when something of question is offered for sale. So if someone would be kind enough to send me links to some of these items, and the names of the individuals or companies selling the items, I will look into it and report to the AAPS executive Board for their actions. George F. Winters, Administrative Director Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences 96 E 700 S Logan, UT 84321-5555 Office: 435-752-7145 Cell: 435-757-6017 Aaps.Office@gmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) That's one of them, there was another outlet for the "Bonner Springs" skulls claiming the 'fossils' from the site had been carbon-dated to 8,000-35,000 years old: LINK 1 LINK 2 The links posted previously have subsequently been 'scrubbed' erasing the visual evidence. Fortunately, Google cache still has the descriptions and photos of the 'Pleistocene' coyote skull. If these links become inoperative, I will have screen captures for any possible AAPS investigation. BONNER SPRINGS MINK SKULL BONNER SPRINGS COYOTE SKULL Edited March 5, 2015 by Auspex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Thank you George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 For any of you who are not familiar with George, he is a good guy, trustworthy and ethical. I've known him for more than 30 years (I don't feel like checking to see how many MORE than 30!) The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 For any of you who are not familiar with George, he is a good guy, trustworthy and ethical. I've known him for more than 30 years (I don't feel like checking to see how many MORE than 30!) Thanks, Rich, for pressing your extensive rolodex into service on this! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Here are the results of a little experiment I did a few years ago. Pretty easy to make bone brown, only a lot of years can make it old! Ramo 1 For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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