Trolls Vs. The Uninformed

[Carl]

During the recent discussion on a purported dinosaur head (http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/49057-dinosaur-fossil-find/?hl=%2Bdinosaur+%2Bfossil) that the Forum adeptly navigated I promised a book title that the discussion reminded me of. Here it is: http://www.mjtgiftshop.org/products/no-one-may-ever-have-the-same-knowledge-again-letters-to-mount-wilson-observatory-1915-1935

I’ll try to keep this brief. Some referred to the topic generator as a troll. I feel this was inaccurate in this case. A troll does what he does deliberately to rile his audience. This guy was merely ill-informed. And I don’t just mean ill-informed about fossils. He was ill-informed about reasoning and critical thinking and what separates a hypothesis from a more evidence-fortified idea. I get requests like his ALL the time and I have noticed that I am almost never being trolled. I am being approached by folks who have never been taught that wanting something to be true is utterly different from checking to see if it is. If this one foundational idea could be taught to kids clearly and concisely and early, I believe that every single person in existence would benefit.

All that said, I have to admit I do find conversations like this enormously humorous. I never intend to belittle the uninformed, per se (I was, of course, one of them at one point and still am in most areas of thought). And I certainly hope (and expect) someone finds the humor in my misguided philosophical wanderings. But the immense humor inherent in these debates can tickle as well as teach. I still think a book of material like this could be crafted to hurt no one and teach many. Maybe I'm being to optimistic? Mischievous?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Carl

[Auspex]

...Maybe I'm being to optimistic? Mischievous?

No: analytically inquisitive, like any good scientist and educator, and seeking the key to reach those who do not understand.

[Stocksdale]

Good points. People who troll rarely would take the effort to take pictures of rocks and post those pictures. And I don't think a troll would ever go so far as to x-ray those rocks at a medical facility

I think it is good to remember that these types of posts are almost always legitimate (at least in the mind of the person posting).

[squali]

From Snolly50's quote:

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so ." ~ Douglas Adams, Last Chance To See.

While doing construction and property surveys I have seen people doubt the answer to 1+1.

I think your right that we are naturally wired to believe our first impressions, and it is a matter of learning to trust someone else.

Trolls can't hold back long enough.

[Ptychodus04]

I must say that I missed most of that thread as I gave up on the whole thing two pages in. I just read it through and it read like transcripts of me trying to talk to people at my church about evolution. Facts and evidence don't matter when put up against someone's convictions. If one is unwilling to entertain the possibility that they might be wrong, there's no amount of evidence in the world that will convince them.

[Arion]

If one is unwilling to entertain the possibility that they might be wrong, there's no amount of evidence in the world that will convince them.

+1

Another quote that would seem to apply here is "Humans are not rational beings, we're rationalizing beings." Especially is this so when one becomes emotionally invested in an idea, when the sunk-cost effect starts to take over. The more you invest in an idea, be that in terms of time, energy, emotion, or whatever, the harder it's going to be to let it go and admit you were wrong, and the more you'll look for ways to justify your position.

[Auspex]

I guess an open mind doesn't help if there's no room left...

[Raggedy Man]

Not saying that this individual is or isn't a troll or that you're wrong or even right, but I've seen some elaborate well thought out trolling. Because of this, I typically just offer my opinion solely based on the known facts at the time of the query. You either; a. Dismiss their respective construct with inpirical data or b. Feed the troll.

Calling a troll out just perpetuates their need to be stupid. But if they're not a troll and are genuinely ignorant....well now you're making a person feel bad or distrust those that they may look to for guidance.

Hope I didn't offend anyone...as it wasn't my intention.

Best regards,

Paul

Edit: be*

Edited September 22, 2014 by Raggedy Man

[Auspex]

The team does not assume anything; troll vs. closed mind vs. simple ignorance will sort itself out pretty naturally, and respect is due until proven otherwise.

[Auspex]

The team does not assume anything; troll vs. closed mind vs. simple ignorance will sort itself out pretty naturally, and respect is due until proven otherwise.

This is probably why we don't really get trolls; it's no fun for them.

[Carl]

Paul: I definitely wasn't aiming my post at you. I certainly agree that there are very crafty trolls out there and this guy might've been one of the best! But I also know that what we do took a LOT of training that we take for granted - most folks have never been taught to question things as fervently as we do!

[tmaier]

The team does not assume anything; troll vs. closed mind vs. simple ignorance will sort itself out pretty naturally, and respect is due until proven otherwise.

You miss one in your list, meshuga.

[Auspex]

You miss one in your list, meshuga.

You mean Mashugana? A usually harmless subspecies, with whom most of us share some DNA.

Compare to Class Clown.

[tmaier]

You mean Mashugana? A usually harmless subspecies, with whom most of us share some DNA.

Compare to Class Clown.

Class Clown is Yutz.

[tmaier]

I think yiddish has become very disjointed over the years.

It probably never was very unified because it existed as a language spread over almost a dozen countries, and has experienced mutations in its DNA.

[kauffy]

This is probably why we don't really get trolls; it's no fun for them.

This is why I love this forum and the diverse group of members who share a wealth of knowledge; who are able to deal with a topic such as the dinosaur head with such tact and scientific integrity. To the point where no troll would get any satisfaction from the conversation, to be repeatedly shut down with scientific reason, not emotional investment.

This forum as long as I've been around has always hindered trolls, tries its best to inform the misguided and ultimately deals with each new case and individual circumstance with an enormous amount of patience and respect. Golden kudos all round guys!

Chris

[tmaier]

To the point where no troll would get any satisfaction from the conversation, to be repeatedly shut down with scientific reason, not emotional investment.

In yiddish, a troll is a schlemiel. It's a person who gets joy from causing frustration and anger in others. I don't think that is what was happening on purpose. It's the intent that makes the difference. The best way to handle a schlemiel is to ignore them.

[kauffy]

In yiddish, a troll is a schlemiel. It's a person who gets joy from causing frustration and anger in others. I don't think that is what was happening on purpose. It's the intent that makes the difference. The best way to handle a schlemiel is to ignore them.

Of course, but when you're on a public forum that aims to inform and educate, I think the members do a great job or addressing the important problems with someone's imaginative claims whilst ignoring (for the most part) any unnecessary emotional ties. This is why a troll would receive little satisfaction in posting here.

I've read plenty of these topics over the years on this forum. I feel i have never dealt with a real troll on here, more-so the uneducated and the misinformed who refuse to change their opinions regardless of the scientific evidence which may prove them wrong.

[Auspex]

We've had our rough patches, and hit a few potholes over the years, but by-and-large, this membership is the classiest bunch of folks on the web. There is not a day goes by that I am not proud of what you do here.

[KYAL]

A schlemiel is a bungler, klutz, clumsy person. There is no implication of getting joy from causing frustration and anger in others.

Meshuga is the adjective for crazy or foolish.

Mashugana (spelling variant) is the noun for a crazy or foolish person.

[tmaier]

I think there is a lot of variation in the meaning of these words. Where did you learn yiddish? I learned from my family, who are Bavarian/Ashkenazie.

It's a dying language, and never was well defined to start out with.

[KYAL]

Russian Empire (Ukraine) and Austro-Hungarian Empire (Hungary) Askenazi heritage. On my way to CCNY on subway would sometimes read the Yiddish newspaper being read by someone sitting across the aisle

[tmaier]

I only heard bits and pieces, growing up. Adults would often say to the kids "Stop being such a ..."

Meshuga is a crazy person. The conversation will go amiss, so don't put too much effort into it.

Meshugana is a crazy situation or thing. A Catch-22 or broken thing.

Schlub is a clumsy or sloppy person. Has shirt on backwards, and doesn't care.

Yutz is a person who tells too any jokes, at the wrong times. An amateur comedian.

Schlemiel is a person who is doing something annoying on purpose to cause anger ("stop schlemieling your sister around").

Schmoe is a guy who isn't stupid, but doesn't have knowledge of a certain area.

What I see on the internet are definitions that lack context and a bunch of words that seem to be all defined to mean the same thing (mostly defined as "stupid"), It's hard to define some things with only one word, and context is a better definition. But, I think that the meanings have bifurcated over time and space, creating a mish-mash of definitions, depending on regional usage. On the internet I see all terms mean "stupid", but the only term I know for that is schmuck, which actually means gullible.

This year the word schmutz made it into the official english-american dictionary.

[Ptychodus04]

This thread is making me think of a Three Stooges episode...

"We start here in Jerkola, travel down the Insane River, over the Giva Dam, into Schmoeland, to the Stronghold of Shmoe." Said by Moe when they are going to retreive the 100 karat diamod of King Rootintootin from Omigosh, Emir of Shmoe in Malice in the Plaice

[tmaier]

This thread is making me think of a Three Stooges episode...

There's a reason for that... it is classic yiddishe comedy. It is based on the words and behaviors we were just describing.

So were the Marx Bros. skits.