Plantguy Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Well gang, going thru different piles trying to put ID's to what I have..I'm not smart enough at this stage to figure out if these 4 worn teeth are partials or not...They aren't very big considering some of the horse teeth I've seen and I'm still waiting on Hulbert's book...so here goes...all are from Florida from the past year's trips....Mio/Plio/Pleistocene? If they cant be assigned to anything other than just the general "Horse" I'm fine...just wanted to ask. Partial 1 Partial 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 Continued Partial 3 Partial 4 Thanks for your help. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 Continued Partial 3 Partial horse tooth 3a.jpgPartial horse tooth 3c.jpg Partial 4 Partial horse tooth 4a.jpgPartial horse tooth 4.jpgPartial horse tooth 4c.jpg Thanks for your help. Regards, Chris Well, I'm excited! Hulbert's The Fossil Vertebrates of Florida was on my doorstep and as Harry said if you want horse teeth its got very good horse teeth drawings! So I now, oh so much better, can appreciate enamel patterns and their many variations and the complexity of what I was asking..... I've plowed thru the book's figures on these two examples and am thinking that Partial 4 is really that. Looks like the center portion of one of the late Pleistocene Equus teeth on page 297, Figure 14-25 in Row B. I am also thinking that Partial 3 looks somewhat similar to Nannippus middle miocene page 292, Fig 14.17 H, but that is just a guess. Will continue looking...lots of other really good stuff in the book to read/look at/digest. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) Pliocene Miocene fossils are found in particular areas of Florida, "bone valley" etc. Phosphate mines seem to be a good source of early mammal fossils. However, much of what I've seen from streams like the Peace and Swanee Rivers and along the coast are late Pleistocene. Where you found these molars would give some indication as to their age. Enamel ridge patterns are a very good way to ID teeth, especially horse teeth. Usually the upper molars are the most distinct and telling. The lower molars takes a lot of expertise to ID as to species because there are fewer distinct characteristics. Size can be some help. Some of the early horses were small and consquently their teeth smaller. I own examples of most early horse molars, study them carefully but determining an exact species from a lower molar is really hard, at least for me. It's fairly easy to determine whether they are early horses of the Miocene and Pliocene but getting down to species can be very tricky. My suggestion is not to be too quick to jump to conclusions as to species. Photos three and four look equus, one and two look Miocene, at least from what I can determine from your photos. Edited September 27, 2014 by jpevahouse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Well, I'm excited! Hulbert's The Fossil Vertebrates of Florida was on my doorstep and as Harry said if you want horse teeth its got very good horse teeth drawings! So I now, oh so much better, can appreciate enamel patterns and their many variations and the complexity of what I was asking..... I've plowed thru the book's figures on these two examples and am thinking that Partial 4 is really that. Looks like the center portion of one of the late Pleistocene Equus teeth on page 297, Figure 14-25 in Row B. I am also thinking that Partial 3 looks somewhat similar to Nannippus middle miocene page 292, Fig 14.17 H, but that is just a guess. Will continue looking...lots of other really good stuff in the book to read/look at/digest. Regards, Chris I knew you'd like the book, Chris. Every Florida collector should own a copy . . . or, better, every collector of Florida teeth should own a copy. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 Pliocene Miocene fossils are found in particular areas of Florida, "bone valley" etc. Phosphate mines seem to be a good source of early mammal fossils. However, much of what I've seen from streams like the Peace and Swanee Rivers and along the coast are late Pleistocene. Where you found these molars would give some indication as to their age. Enamel ridge patterns are a very good way to ID teeth, especially horse teeth. Usually the upper molars are the most distinct and telling. The lower molars takes a lot of expertise to ID as to species because there are fewer distinct characteristics. Size can be some help. Some of the early horses were small and consquently their teeth smaller. I own examples of most early horse molars, study them carefully but determining an exact species from a lower molar is really hard, at least for me. It's fairly easy to determine whether they are early horses of the Miocene and Pliocene but getting down to species can be very tricky. My suggestion is not to be too quick to jump to conclusions as to species. Photos three and four look equus, one and two look Miocene, at least from what I can determine from your photos. Jp, Thanks for the pointers...I should have added the extra details and have listed them below...none of this is insitu stuff so different ages crop up all over the place down here. Partial 1: Desoto County, Florida, Peace River Formation of the Hawthorne Group, Creek find Partial 2: Manatee County, Florida, Peace River Formation of the Hawthorne Group, Surface find Partial 3: Manatee Coutny, Florida, Peace River Formation of the Hawthorne Group, Surface find Partial 4: Manatee County, Florida, Peace River Formation of the Hawthorne Group, Surface find I am really trying to get to the point where I can recognize a partial tooth that aint worth spending too much time with from a more complete tooth...getting to a genus or species beyond just saying horse would be most excellent but I see now how difficult that can be with a mostly complete specimen let alone some of the partials. I'm optimistic that I'll find some more as I've been going out pretty frequently lately...usually several times a week after work. Jeff seems to have a mastery of finding these dang things but I'm a slow learner I guess, although one of the 1st horse bits I found here was an almost complete hoof... I havent been inside one of the phosphate mines yet to collect but am scheduled to go with the Tampa Club late next month. Hoping to find something/anything that aint been chewed up...no pun intended. Thanks again for the info and the looks! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 I knew you'd like the book, Chris. Every Florida collector should own a copy . . . or, better, every collector of Florida teeth should own a copy. Yep, its a keeper. Thanks! I've been down here quite awhile and was apparently driving by and sometimes stepping over vert fossils....now that I'm picking them up my curiousity about every little bit of something is exhausting--but its great! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I encourage you to keep at it. Horse fossils are abundant in Florida and an excellent way to learn about 15 - 20 million years of local mammal evolution. The earliest ancestors of the horse lived about 40- 50 million years ago. Because they were so adaptable they are one of the rare mammals to have a continuous lineage to the present. Most mammals of the Eocene and Oligocene are extinct but horses survived when others couldnt. I consider my horse fossils among the most interesting. They definitely have a special place in North American mammal evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Yep, its a keeper. Thanks! I've been down here quite awhile and was apparently driving by and sometimes stepping over vert fossils....now that I'm picking them up my curiousity about every little bit of something is exhausting--but its great! Regards, Chris And so it begins... For a resident of Florida, you held out a long time! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Hulbert's books and writings on Florida fossils are outstanding, I can only ditto Harry on the value of this specific book. I generally believe that these partials are generally equus lower molars split in half (mirror image) just because that is much more common in the the Peace. However, once in a while I am pleasantly surprised to find a much older miocene horse tooth. Using Hulberts book to identify different enamel ridges is a great idea and rewarding when it works... The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbshark Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 That hoof you found is a mighty nice one too lol Every once in a great while it's not just a big rock down there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 And so it begins... For a resident of Florida, you held out a long time! Chas, I apparently had my head in the sand--never did find any plant fossil material! Pun intended. Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Hulbert's books and writings on Florida fossils are outstanding, I can only ditto Harry on the value of this specific book. I generally believe that these partials are generally equus lower molars split in half (mirror image) just because that is much more common in the the Peace. However, once in a while I am pleasantly surprised to find a much older miocene horse tooth. Using Hulberts book to identify different enamel ridges is a great idea and rewarding when it works... Thanks! These are really challenging to say the least and I can see it taking years of dedication and experience. Another more complete one I found yesterday. Also found these interesting links about horse material in Florida: https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fhc/Stratmap1.htm https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/ponyexpress/pe_newsletters.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Looks like Cormohipparion Cf. C. emsliei to me. Your tooth is likely an M3 or possibly an M2. But . . . these single horse teeth often confound me. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Thanks! These are really challenging to say the least and I can see it taking years of dedication and experience. Another more complete one I found yesterday. Horse tooth side view.jpgHorse tooth.jpg Also found these interesting links about horse material in Florida: https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fhc/Stratmap1.htm https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/ponyexpress/pe_newsletters.htm SWEET!!!! Look at the crispness of that chewing surface.. You found this YESTERDAY? I do not think that you are hunting the Peace River. but best of luck whereever you are searching. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 Looks like Cormohipparion Cf. C. emsliei to me. Your tooth is likely an M3 or possibly an M2. But . . . these single horse teeth often confound me. Thanks Harry. I was looking at the book and wondering about that genus...It aint easy even when most of it is there! I bet they could easily whip up an ID base like they do with fingerprint identification....thinking some grad student with some coding skills and needing a project could jump on creating the app to readily id specific individual tooth traits and match it to a database...maybe they already have.... Appreciate the help! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Chris, I am wandering around these older threads picking up details of small horse molars. When I ID one I put it into my gallery. Here is another Cormohipparion I think I just IDed. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/gallery/image/36984-cormohipparion-ingenuum-upper-molar/ If there is a comparative database of molar fingerprints, I have not found it. Mostly, I have been reading old scientific papers like one from Bruce McFadden in 1984. SYSTEMATICS AND PHYLOGENY OF HIPPARION, NEOHIPPARION, NANNIPPUS, AND CORMOHIPPARION (MAMMALIA, EQUIDAE) FROM THE MIOCENE AND PLIOCENE OF THE NEW WORLD The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) I posted in the wrong place... sorry. Edited April 1, 2017 by abyssunder ...should be deleted " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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