Dinosaur Intelligence

[ynot]

So would it be like the Indominus Rex situation in Jurassic World haha? No predators of the new species and the new species messes up the balance with existing species?

Yes, and I doubt that intelligence would have much of a role.

Tony

[Mike Pocock]

Hi All, what a fascinating thread, my take on this is how much of what dinosaurs did was due to intelligence and how much due to instinct, intelligence is always being measured species to species such as an octopus being rated as the equivalent intelligence as a 6 year old child.

When I was a youngster I was told that if ants where 21/2 inches big they would have ruled the world not us. Still not sure if that is true ha ha.

However as for man being the dominant intelligence on the planet, we are only dominant due to our collective ability to help each other and I think that because we form such large social community's and have social interchanges we have succeeded, this over simplifies it I know but if you take the average person and drop him off in the jungle naked with no tools or equipment how long would he survive, however if you took a tiger from a Sumatran jungle and dropped it into an African jungle it would survive.

This I believe is to do with instinct and not intelligence. Drop a well respected Nobel prize winning physicist in the jungle and see how he gets on his intelligence is very specialised and may or may not help him.

Also take cunning into account, is this a form of intelligence we often hear the saying "animal cunning" is it intelligence or instinct.

On the whole I think that dinosaurs probably had some very hard wired instincts honed over millennia that served them well and did not need to develop "intelligence" to further themselves.

However the thought of a pack of raptors running around with machineguns is quite scary.

Regards

Mike

[Auspex]

So would it be like the Indominus Rex situation in Jurassic World haha? No predators of the new species and the new species messes up the balance with existing species?

I try to avoid thinking in terms of ecological "balance". Change in the environment is continuous, as life is always pushing the envelope. What really upsets the applecart is when the change occurs faster than what the systems can adapt to. Suddenly dropping a new top-tier predator into the mix usually has a profound impact.

[Raptor Lover]

Hi All, what a fascinating thread, my take on this is how much of what dinosaurs did was due to intelligence and how much due to instinct, intelligence is always being measured species to species such as an octopus being rated as the equivalent intelligence as a 6 year old child.

When I was a youngster I was told that if ants where 21/2 inches big they would have ruled the world not us. Still not sure if that is true ha ha.

However as for man being the dominant intelligence on the planet, we are only dominant due to our collective ability to help each other and I think that because we form such large social community's and have social interchanges we have succeeded, this over simplifies it I know but if you take the average person and drop him off in the jungle naked with no tools or equipment how long would he survive, however if you took a tiger from a Sumatran jungle and dropped it into an African jungle it would survive.

This I believe is to do with instinct and not intelligence. Drop a well respected Nobel prize winning physicist in the jungle and see how he gets on his intelligence is very specialised and may or may not help him.

Also take cunning into account, is this a form of intelligence we often hear the saying "animal cunning" is it intelligence or instinct.

On the whole I think that dinosaurs probably had some very hard wired instincts honed over millennia that served them well and did not need to develop "intelligence" to further themselves.

However the thought of a pack of raptors running around with machineguns is quite scary.

Regards

Mike

That's a really good point Mike. Because if an octopus is just as intelligent as a 6 year old human, the octopus is going to better at getting it's own food and evading predators. That's just instinct. So you're very right. Instinct is more important than intelligence

[Raptor Lover]

I try to avoid thinking in terms of ecological "balance". Change in the environment is continuous, as life is always pushing the envelope. What really upsets the applecart is when the change occurs faster than what the systems can adapt to. Suddenly dropping a new top-tier predator into the mix usually has a profound impact.

Yeah that's true. A rapid change in an ecosystem is going to affect things. Edited October 2, 2015 by RaptorFan4Life

[ynot]

That's a really good point Mike. Because if an octopus is just as intelligent as a 6 year old human, the octopus is going to better at getting it's own food and evading predators. That's just instinct. So you're very right. Instinct is more important than intelligence.

Studies have shown that octopi are capable of learning. They put a crab in a jar and timed how long the octopus took to get it out. The more times that they did this the less time it took the octopus to open the jar. and the retention of this knowledge was held for a while when the jar was used sporadically. The octopus learned a new way to obtain food and remembered how to do it. How does this equate to intelligence? Instinct?

Altho the answer to the original question will never be know, I still think that our species does not give other animals enough credit.

Tony

Edited October 2, 2015 by ynot

[ashcraft]

Drop a physicist in the jungle, he/she may struggle. Drop a mountain gorilla into downtown new york............not going to end well.

Two humans, same brain size, one has an IQ of 140, the other of 70. How much does brain size really matter?

Ants are tiny in comparison. They raise crops and livestock (fungus and aphids) build complex cities, can use their bodies to cross waterways by making a living bridge, store nutrients for times of famine, yet are they intelligent?

Humans are so good at problem solving? You have a house, your problem is to keep termites out, the termites problem is to get in. Who wins?

Brent Ashcraft

[Raptor Lover]

Studies have shown that octopi are capable of learning. They put a crab in a jar and timed how long the octopus took to get it out. The more times that they did this the less time it took the octopus to open the jar. and the retention of this knowledge was held for a while when the jar was used sporadically. The octopus learned a new way to obtain food and remembered how to do it. How does this equate to intelligence? Instinct?

Altho the answer to the original question will never be know, I still think that our species does not give other animals enough credit.

Tony

Ahh okay good point

[Raptor Lover]

Drop a physicist in the jungle, he/she may struggle. Drop a mountain gorilla into downtown new york............not going to end well.

Two humans, same brain size, one has an IQ of 140, the other of 70. How much does brain size really matter?

Ants are tiny in comparison. They raise crops and livestock (fungus and aphids) build complex cities, can use their bodies to cross waterways by making a living bridge, store nutrients for times of famine, yet are they intelligent?

Humans are so good at problem solving? You have a house, your problem is to keep termites out, the termites problem is to get in. Who wins?

Brent Ashcraft

I never considered IQ. That's a good point. I guess that IQ could differ between animals of the same species

[HugNiceman]

Apologies if this comes across technical and snotty.

We know what the most intelligent dinosaurs are. Parrots and Corvids. It seems the latest findings have taken birds from 'descended from dinosaurs' to 'birds are theropod dinosaurs', which actually makes a lot of sense. One thing this helps with in terms of non-avian dinosaurs is it gives us a kind of reference point. Comparing a T-Rex's brain with a human's would be like comparing a Komodo Dragon's and dolphin. But you can compare a human brain and a gibbon brain with more confidence since you're working from a similar base. From what I've read, theropods have always been the top tier for dinosaur intelligence, and it seems like Troodon is the top for the extinct theropods. But they're still nowhere close to a raven or an African Grey. But everyone has made a good point on the relativity of intelligence. I think the frequent markers used for things like this is communication, recognition of self, problem solving(and how many steps can a creature go), and culture/learning vs. instinct.

[Auspex]

That is a good, grounded perspective, as long as we acknowledge that the criteria humans use to judge 'intelligence' are those important to humans. What supercharged the avian brain was the need for a CPU that could master the unimaginable complexity of controlled flight. Even dung beetles are as intelligent as they need to be.

[ashcraft]

Even dung beetles are as intelligent as they need to be.

I wish the same could be said for high school sophomores.

Brent Ashcraft

[Pterosaur]

Apologies if this comes across technical and snotty.

We know what the most intelligent dinosaurs are. Parrots and Corvids. It seems the latest findings have taken birds from 'descended from dinosaurs' to 'birds are theropod dinosaurs', which actually makes a lot of sense. One thing this helps with in terms of non-avian dinosaurs is it gives us a kind of reference point. Comparing a T-Rex's brain with a human's would be like comparing a Komodo Dragon's and dolphin. But you can compare a human brain and a gibbon brain with more confidence since you're working from a similar base. From what I've read, theropods have always been the top tier for dinosaur intelligence, and it seems like Troodon is the top for the extinct theropods. But they're still nowhere close to a raven or an African Grey. But everyone has made a good point on the relativity of intelligence. I think the frequent markers used for things like this is communication, recognition of self, problem solving(and how many steps can a creature go), and culture/learning vs. instinct.

This was well said.

The intelligence of Parrots and Corvids is truly impressive. Their problem solving abilities are unreal.