snolly50 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 In the sales page it says itself that these fossils are genuine but re cast into a secure matrix. Excellent info. If the seller's statement is correct for the piece pictured; then that tells me a different "style/look" of matrix from the known fake I encountered is also suspect. Thanks. Was the seller speaking of this piece specifically or was the "cast in secure matrix" a general description of his wares? Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoker Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 You could use a robot suite? I mean come on! You have time travel why not a robot suite? I do suppose you could use a cross between an exoskeleton and scuba gear, but I wouldn't count on anything working against those jaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 I do suppose you could use a cross between an exoskeleton and scuba gear, but I wouldn't count on anything working against those jaws. I remember a game called Dino Crisis 2 I used to play when I was like 18, That has you fighting them in a robotic scuba suit with electric... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Excellent info. If the seller's statement is correct for the piece pictured; then that tells me a different "style/look" of matrix from the known fake I encountered is also suspect. Thanks. Was the seller speaking of this piece specifically or was the "cast in secure matrix" a general description of his wares? The seller was talking about the piece directly saying: "It comes from the Genntour Basin Phosphate Deposits in Khouribga, Morocco, North Africa.""These are genuine fossils but have been removed from the rock in which they are found and re-set into a stable rock matrix" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 The seller was talking about the piece directly saying: "It comes from the Genntour Basin Phosphate Deposits in Khouribga, Morocco, North Africa.""These are genuine fossils but have been removed from the rock in which they are found and re-set into a stable rock matrix" Thanks for following up on the description. It is apparent then that the artisan producing the piece pictured went to some lengths to produce a slab with a natural appearance. Contrast the seemingly random placement of material within the pictured slab and the arranged appearance of the commonly offered jaws and teeth. The latter having a very overly ordered arrangement. I am now wondering if there is a relatively simple chemical test that could be used to determine if matrix is natural or a composite. That is, something that would react in some way to the binder employed in the assembled matrix, A non-reaction would suggest since there was no consolidant present, the matrix would be deemed natural. Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 It is my understanding that the Moroccan phosphate matrix is often extremely friable, hence the practice of re-seating the specimens. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Thanks for following up on the description. It is apparent then that the artisan producing the piece pictured went to some lengths to produce a slab with a natural appearance. Contrast the seemingly random placement of material within the pictured slab and the arranged appearance of the commonly offered jaws and teeth. The latter having a very overly ordered arrangement. I am now wondering if there is a relatively simple chemical test that could be used to determine if matrix is natural or a composite. That is, something that would react in some way to the binder employed in the assembled matrix, A non-reaction would suggest since there was no consolidant present, the matrix would be deemed natural. They use PVA to bind the sand... from what I am told in my research and questioning sellers who admit them as fake matrix. I think they look great for children or display (and at an average price of £10 or less they are great deals) but my worry is that I am seeing more and more people resell these and not knowing they are cast in a fake matrix or knowing and selling at high prices! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 They use PVA to bind the sand... from what I am told in my research and questioning sellers who admit them as fake matrix. I think they look great for children or display (and at an average price of £10 or less they are great deals) but my worry is that I am seeing more and more people resell these and not knowing they are cast in a fake matrix or knowing and selling at high prices! The ones I have been used to seeing look contrived (both jaw sets and single rooted teeth). They often rested on a loaf-shaped matrix and the fossils just looked "placed." However, the grouping pictured here looks very natural to my eye - random arrangement, occupying different levels in the matrix. It concerns me that I can have a positive initial impression to a piece that is not "as dug." It is my understanding that the Moroccan phosphate matrix is often extremely friable, hence the practice of re-seating the specimens. That being the case my hope for a chemical referee is dashed. A legit, ground dug piece might be consolidated with the same material as a fantasy one. Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 as far as I know the more natural ones are darker and more grey soil colour while the re set ones are lighter and more sandy colour.... You see this problem in my studies with armour fakes.. people often make them how they think they were found rather than how they actually are... so people would make a more sandy stone rather than the more dark stones found below the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 This guy claims this is the natural matrix: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Apparently form this article you can put the fossil in water and it will dissolve the adhesive and all that will be left is sand and the real teeth. It must also be noted the they use cheap broken teeth and only show the good side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 Go to this thread to learn more about the fakes and how to maybe extract the fossil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 How would you manage such a feat? I know a couple guys who could do it. One mate used to jump out of helicopters and tackle marlins (no the viral video is NOT a hoax) and another worked at a crocodile farm for over a decade. Just leave the Mosasaur to us Aussies. "That belongs in a museum!" - Indiana Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgroper Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I know a couple guys who could do it. One mate used to jump out of helicopters and tackle marlins (no the viral video is NOT a hoax) and another worked at a crocodile farm for over a decade. Just leave the Mosasaur to us Aussies. Dan I worked on the croc farm in Broome and there's not too many crocs I'd recommend jumping on the back of, they don't like it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Dan I worked on the croc farm in Broome and there's not too many crocs I'd recommend jumping on the back of, they don't like it! Hahaha! Yea, but don't tell the foreigners that! I like to propagate the myth that we all surf and punch sharks by day and wrestle crocs by night. While saying "crikey" and talking about shrimps and BBQ. Oh, and we have big knives. 3 "That belongs in a museum!" - Indiana Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 "I ain't afraid of no Mossies; I'm from Marble Bar!" 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 So who's up for genetically modifying Monitor lizards to create Pseudomosies? Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 ~.jpg I tell you something... that women tried to take it on and look how that worked out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 So who's up for genetically modifying Monitor lizards to create Pseudomosies? I can see a few problems with that. The biggest would be DNA and a viable surrogate. They are doing great work on Woolly Mammoth DNA in S Korea and there is a plan to repopulate the arctic regions with these beasts. Free food for all! Many Inuit tribe are very poor and have lost their traditional hunting targets. But who is going to allow an African Elephant to carry the embryo? Could very well kill the mother. "Ethics". Back to the Mosasaur. (Let's pretend we have viable Mosasaur DNA) Did they lay eggs or produce live young? What animal is gonna act as a surrogate?? Crocodile? Komodo Dragons? Personally, I believe Pseudomosies already exist. Galapagos Iguana!And our salt water crocs swim deep in the ocean all the time. And they are BIG and MEAN. Nothing like a gator. They can't be played with. Will kill u every time "That belongs in a museum!" - Indiana Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I can see a few problems with that. The biggest would be DNA and a viable surrogate. They are doing great work on Woolly Mammoth DNA in S Korea and there is a plan to repopulate the arctic regions with these beasts. Free food for all! Many Inuit tribe are very poor and have lost their traditional hunting targets. But who is going to allow an African Elephant to carry the embryo? Could very well kill the mother. "Ethics". Back to the Mosasaur. (Let's pretend we have viable Mosasaur DNA) Did they lay eggs or produce live young? What animal is gonna act as a surrogate?? Crocodile? Komodo Dragons? Personally, I believe Pseudomosies already exist. Galapagos Iguana!And our salt water crocs swim deep in the ocean all the time. And they are BIG and MEAN. Nothing like a gator. They can't be played with. Will kill u every time No I do not mean using actual Mosasaur DNA. Not like Jurassic Park, finding DNA using that. Which is what is being done with Mammoths now. What I mean is similar to the experiements that have been done with chickens to create pseudosaurs. By tweaking the genes of chickens they have already succeeded in creating chicken with teeth and longer tails. With this technique you're using what is already there but just turned off. And maybe with a few more years going further and basically making custom creatures on demand might be possible. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolman1c Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 No I do not mean using actual Mosasaur DNA. Not like Jurassic Park, finding DNA using that. Which is what is being done with Mammoths now. What I mean is similar to the experiements that have been done with chickens to create pseudosaurs. By tweaking the genes of chickens they have already succeeded in creating chicken with teeth and longer tails. With this technique you're using what is already there but just turned off. And maybe with a few more years going further and basically making custom creatures on demand might be possible. In Jurassic park (the book) I believe they get a lot of the DNA from crushing up masses amounts of DNA... But the museum I have gone to before (the Museum of York) actually has some DNA from one found in a fossil with protein still attached. From this the actually figured out they are the colour black. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 No I do not mean using actual Mosasaur DNA. Not like Jurassic Park, finding DNA using that. Which is what is being done with Mammoths now. What I mean is similar to the experiements that have been done with chickens to create pseudosaurs. By tweaking the genes of chickens they have already succeeded in creating chicken with teeth and longer tails. With this technique you're using what is already there but just turned off. And maybe with a few more years going further and basically making custom creatures on demand might be possible. Yea, I've heard about the toothed chickens. And apparently, if I remember correctly, it simply involves injecting the egg with a certain protein. Hmm. I wonder what could be done with Galapagos Iguanas... As far as I know that's the closest relative to a Mosasaur that has a similar behavior. Increase in size maybe? But how do you get it to live permanently in the water? So many problems... I'm still waiting for the mammoth. Until then I'm gonna buy a chicken and look up what they injected into the egg...I hope it isnt as rare as hens teeth.... "That belongs in a museum!" - Indiana Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carcharodontosaurus Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) The toothed chicken mutation is lethal and is probably not a "true" genetic atavism as the gene it affects is pleiotropic and causes various hideous deformities which don't resemble a dinosaur. As for mosasaurs, mutations in HoxD genes have been linked to whale flipper evolution, so I would start there. I haven't found any papers examining the genetic basis of marine reptile (turtle, sea snake) osmoregulation though. Edited January 7, 2016 by Carcharodontosaurus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 The toothed chicken mutation is lethal and is probably not a "true" genetic atavism as the gene it affects is pleiotropic and causes various hideous deformities which don't resemble a dinosaur. As for mosasaurs, mutations in HoxD genes have been linked to whale flipper evolution, so I would start there. I haven't found any papers examining the genetic basis of marine reptile (turtle, sea snake) osmoregulation though. Thanx! Don't know all that much about the genetics of it. How do critters like our Aussies Salt Water crocs osmoregulate? That would be an interesting study as there are also fresh water crocs here. I'm sure the knowledge is readily available on the net but I'm a little lazy. "That belongs in a museum!" - Indiana Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now