Velociraptor vs Protoceratops (Fighting Dinosaurs) Video

[ashcraft]

Out of curiosity, I looked up the weight of a red-tailed hawk-around 2 pounds. Something with a mass 8 times greater, you are looking at 16 pounds, like a small dog. Certainly something a red-tail could handle.

Brent Ashcraft

[JohnJ]

Cool, but it suffers from a common flaw I have seen all over the place in paleo-reconstructions... They made the landscape look just like it does now. NO.. it was a sandy desert... no cliffs and they were supposedly killed by a sandstorm, not a rockfall, which implies they were fighting in a sandstorm. Otherwise.. nice graphics.

Agreed, JP.

Also, if we had a contest to come up with other realistic scenarios (which didn't contradict the site data) that place these bones in association, I'll bet we wouldn't be at a loss for entries.

[Raptor Lover]

I think it can be said without fear of contradiction that these are seriously over-built for mere grasping:

Golden Eagle Feet.jpg

A raptor needs to quickly kill its prey, not just hold it...

Regarding the "slashing claw" hypothesis, I never bought it. That claw is not designed for slashing, but for impaling. I think its retractability existed so as not to impede running; these guys were quick ambush predators!

I completely agree, definitely for puncturing. And good point about the running! Also, they were probably retractable so that it would have more penetrating force and puncturing power

[squali]

Agreed, JP.

Also, if we had a contest to come up with other realistic scenarios (which didn't contradict the site data) that place these bones in association, I'll bet we wouldn't be at a loss for entries.

This is a great point that requires some thought about the time involved in actually dying. I'm not sure death is instantaneous during a sandstorm.

If a dune collapsed then the body positions would be altered by the force of the soil. It is an interesting speculation at the least.

Last spring/summer we watched a raptor (roughed leg hawk) kill rabbits with a single shocking blow/strike with its talons. It happened over and over. The hawk didn't even eat some of the rabbits it just seemed drawn to react. These raptors typically hunt shrews in the artic and are more than capable of taking out the rabbits which are at least 10 times larger than their normal prey.

[Raptor Lover]

Yep I certainly wouldnt let a Golden eagle scratch my itch. thats for sure! Ok birds of prey has sharp claws as well but I don't see a parallel specifically for the retractable giant killing claw of a dromeosaur

Anyway I'm not trying to belittle modern birdies here, I guess what I am arguing against is the specific hypothesis put forward a year or so ago and now apparently accepted as gospel that the dromeosaur and specifically Velociraptor killing claw was designed and utilised specifically as a tool for clasping and pinning down its prey in relation to a comparative study done on a hawk using it for this precise purpose and thus it was not used as a slashing weapon at all.

What I take exception to with this theory is that Velociraptor is unique as far as I know in the dinosaur kingdom in that it has been captured frozen in time in mortal combat literally in the act of attempting to execute its prey and that this should be the primary source for determining how it would kill its prey. The fact is its raised its feet right up to the throat suggesting they used their foot claws for making the kill and the sickle claw itself would be the largest and sharpest claw and is articulated to snap down in a semi-circular motion ideal for the purpose, though can substitute the word gouge, stab, hack etc for slash for perhaps a more accurate terminology.

Any other theory for the claw's useage is just idol speculation along the lines of 'Oh sauropods must have lived in water as they are so heavy and have these high nostrils, oh and lets give it the skin of an elephant as well as theyre big beasties as well arent they'.

Its not a revolutionary theory, maybe they pounced and gripped smaller prey and nibbled it to death at times but we have no evidence to base this on in relation to the dinosaur itself. It just seems theories like this are dreamt up just to rewrite the textbook for the sake of it and then taken as canon because someone has done a study on it. Its like seeing an Iguana lizard munching on some left over Taco Bell and therefore drawing the conclusion that a Compsognathus say had a taste for burritos. You'd get a lot better idea for its dietary preferences by actually analysing the fossilised contents of a dead Compsognathus.

Yes its annoying we can't actually observe a dinosaurs natural behaviour but taking the shortcut of studying a modern day creature that most resembles it as a substitute isn't a methodology I'm ever going to find convincing.

I'm more impressed by the kind of study where they recreate the claw in question and test out its prowess. Like the video of experimenting on a side of beef to disprove the Jurassic park notion that they could rip a creature apart from fly zip to bow tie (I found that hard to swallow even at 14!)

Yeah I don't buy the pinning down thing. Velociraptor specifically was small and having a foot or both trying to pin down a Protoceratops or equivalent prey seems unlikely. Likewise, a larger dromaeosaur, like Utahraptor, wouldn't try to pin down a sauropod. And would say that it's definitely proven that they killed and punctured with that claw. And I like your Taco Bell example haha.

[Auspex]

For such a big Buteo, Rough-legs have tiny little feet (just right for taking voles). Taking a rabbit through sheer impact energy is quite an adaptation, and it is quite surprising that they risked injury for 'sport'. My experience has been that only a raptor on the verge of starvation would take such a chance.

[squali]

Yes the Buteo had trouble hauling the rabbits away

but the kill strike was very accurate and efficient. It appeared to have no harm to the hawk.

This occurred over a period of months where a 280 acre

'Brown field' was being taken back from nature. The site was undisturbed

For at least 25 years after USSteel closed it. I haven't seen so many rabbits

and mice in a long time. As areas were cleared the rodents congregated at large piles of debris.

The hawk positioned itself to see the fleeing rabbits and they didn't get far.

It really was quite remarkable. There is a USDA wildlife technician that serves a nearby site and

he was very interested in the fact the hawk appeared to be killing out of instinct and not for food.

It was definitely supposed to be in the Arctic at that time of year so something was out of order for that one.

[Killclaw]

You are making the assumption that they killed large prey regularly. Is there evidence of this? I know one protoceratops attack that was fatal to the attacker. Also, large birds of prey kill animals many times their own size, but I suspect not frequently.

Brent Ashcraft

In terms of assumptions and theories this death scene (besides a bit of Pterosaur one had for its last meal) is the entirity of the actual evidence we have regarding a Velociraptor's predatory techniques and feeding patterns. There's are endless hypothetical possibilities you can dream up for what they might use this and that part of their body for but in this fossil scene we have the most definitive evidence for any dinosaur in existence of how they combated their prey so when it comes to solid evidence this all you could possibly hope for.

Palaeontologists, professional and amateur alike, live for concocting speculative theories of how dinosaurs may or may not have behaved , knowing full well that nothing can ever really be proven about such a long extinct species and that their opinions, with some science thrown in to support the speculation can effectively become accepted as fact if nobody takes the trouble to refute it.

There's no real truisms in dinosaur studies but if you start refuting the evidence you can see plain and simple with your own eyes then the whole sum of our knowledge of dinosaur behaviour would evaporate in to an infinity of nebulous theories and we'd effectively return to the complete ignorance of 2 centuries ago.

So maybe the the Velociraptor and the Protoceratops were just cuddling together for warmth or maybe it had given up on life and let itself be sat on and chewed to death without further commotion but thats not what my eyes tell me when I look at that fossil and that fossil is all we really know about how the raptor attacked its victims and what it preyed on.

[Auspex]

...There is a USDA wildlife technician that serves a nearby site and

he was very interested in the fact the hawk appeared to be killing out of instinct and not for food.

It was definitely supposed to be in the Arctic at that time of year so something was out of order for that one.

I would have liked to have trapped and examined it. Being out of range for the season might have meant that it was not healthy enough to migrate, and attempting to take over-sized prey speaks of hunger. "Killing out of instinct" is not something they do.

[Auspex]

In terms of assumptions and theories this death scene (besides a bit of Pterosaur one had for its last meal) is the entirity of the actual evidence we have regarding a Velociraptor's predatory techniques and feeding patterns...

How much of the posing might be due to assumptions made by the preparator? Are they exactly as-found?

I hope I will be forgiven for feeling that there is a bit of theater involved...

[Killclaw]

How much of the posing might be due to assumptions made by the preparator? Are they exactly as-found?

I hope I will be forgiven for feeling that there is a bit of theater involved...

I've seen a picture of the original fossil in situ its pretty much the exact posture they were found in. Anyway it was discovered and excavated by communists in the Cold war era and they had no sense of imagination! You are forgiven though

[Killclaw]

Yeah that's true. I'm really eager for them to uncover some skeletal material soon. I love my Moroccan theropod tooth, one of my favorite teeth in my collection, yet I don't know what dino it came from haha

Yeah that is strange. Aren't there sauropod teeth found in the Kem Kem though? Rebbachisaurus I believe? Is it just known by teeth? It's really weird that they only find theopod material. Maybe they just aren't looking in the right place? Some millionaire should fund a massive upheavel of the area there to see if they can finally find some skeletal material. Also, maybe because of the location, material didn't fossilize well? Just teeth? I have no idea, just a suggestion.

Yes this is a puzzler, there's Atlasaurus and I've seen fossils of an unnamed (aren't they all!) Ornithomimid for sale. Whats lacking is the basic ornithopod you would have been expecting to be the main prey. Looking at other ecosystems I think first of my local one in the wealden.

What you get is all manner of Iguanodon fossils by the truckload scattered all over the place , assorted Sauropod, Hypsolophidon and Ankylosaur bones and then in greater scarcity the Therapod predators Neovenator and Baryonyx which crop up very rarely.Likewise in Cretaceous north america there seem to be 5 Edmontosaurus finds for every other dinosaur.

So where are they all in Morocco? It could be that their teeth just don't preserve well like Camptosaurus or indeed Iguanodon itself and maybe they are of small size so ignored and discarded when dug up by locals. Its bizarre though when you think of the Kem Kem being practically a mine for Spinosaurus teeth, the largest predator of all. You can explain away that they ate mostly fish but what did all these Carcharodontosaurus' feed on? Just the sauropods? Still they're all relatively new discoveries so maybe someone will do a serious study one day, fill in all the missing pieces and make sense of it all.

Until then collecting Moroccan fossils (and if you have a passion for dinosaur fossils and a limited budget you're inevitably going to gravitate to them) is going to be a frustrating business full of question marks.

[ashcraft]

In terms of assumptions and theories this death scene (besides a bit of Pterosaur one had for its last meal) is the entirity of the actual evidence we have regarding a Velociraptor's predatory techniques and feeding patterns. There's are endless hypothetical possibilities you can dream up for what they might use this and that part of their body for but in this fossil scene we have the most definitive evidence for any dinosaur in existence of how they combated their prey so when it comes to solid evidence this all you could possibly hope for.

Palaeontologists, professional and amateur alike, live for concocting speculative theories of how dinosaurs may or may not have behaved , knowing full well that nothing can ever really be proven about such a long extinct species and that their opinions, with some science thrown in to support the speculation can effectively become accepted as fact if nobody takes the trouble to refute it.

There's no real truisms in dinosaur studies but if you start refuting the evidence you can see plain and simple with your own eyes then the whole sum of our knowledge of dinosaur behaviour would evaporate in to an infinity of nebulous theories and we'd effectively return to the complete ignorance of 2 centuries ago.

So maybe the the Velociraptor and the Protoceratops were just cuddling together for warmth or maybe it had given up on life and let itself be sat on and chewed to death without further commotion but thats not what my eyes tell me when I look at that fossil and that fossil is all we really know about how the raptor attacked its victims and what it preyed on.

You mis-understand my point. We know that the raptor was a carnivore because it had pointy teeth and a sharp claw, and the protoceratops had to be prey because the raptor was seemingly eating it. It is also possible that the raptor was just noodeling along, minding his own business, when it blundered into the protoceratops nesting area, and was attacked.

Eyes see upside down. Our brain inverts (interprets)it.

Brent Ashcraft

[Raptor Lover]

In terms of assumptions and theories this death scene (besides a bit of Pterosaur one had for its last meal) is the entirity of the actual evidence we have regarding a Velociraptor's predatory techniques and feeding patterns. There's are endless hypothetical possibilities you can dream up for what they might use this and that part of their body for but in this fossil scene we have the most definitive evidence for any dinosaur in existence of how they combated their prey so when it comes to solid evidence this all you could possibly hope for.

Palaeontologists, professional and amateur alike, live for concocting speculative theories of how dinosaurs may or may not have behaved , knowing full well that nothing can ever really be proven about such a long extinct species and that their opinions, with some science thrown in to support the speculation can effectively become accepted as fact if nobody takes the trouble to refute it.

There's no real truisms in dinosaur studies but if you start refuting the evidence you can see plain and simple with your own eyes then the whole sum of our knowledge of dinosaur behaviour would evaporate in to an infinity of nebulous theories and we'd effectively return to the complete ignorance of 2 centuries ago.

So maybe the the Velociraptor and the Protoceratops were just cuddling together for warmth or maybe it had given up on life and let itself be sat on and chewed to death without further commotion but thats not what my eyes tell me when I look at that fossil and that fossil is all we really know about how the raptor attacked its victims and what it preyed on.

Yeah that's true, a lot of the supposed knowledge we have is speculation accepted as fact. This Fighting Dinosaurs specimen is the truest for of fact that you can ask for. You can see clearly how the raptor has his claw going for the Proto's throat. They are fighting frozen in time. It is a really remarkable specimen

[Raptor Lover]

Yes this is a puzzler, there's Atlasaurus and I've seen fossils of an unnamed (aren't they all!) Ornithomimid for sale. Whats lacking is the basic ornithopod you would have been expecting to be the main prey. Looking at other ecosystems I think first of my local one in the wealden.

What you get is all manner of Iguanodon fossils by the truckload scattered all over the place , assorted Sauropod, Hypsolophidon and Ankylosaur bones and then in greater scarcity the Therapod predators Neovenator and Baryonyx which crop up very rarely.Likewise in Cretaceous north america there seem to be 5 Edmontosaurus finds for every other dinosaur.

So where are they all in Morocco? It could be that their teeth just don't preserve well like Camptosaurus or indeed Iguanodon itself and maybe they are of small size so ignored and discarded when dug up by locals. Its bizarre though when you think of the Kem Kem being practically a mine for Spinosaurus teeth, the largest predator of all. You can explain away that they ate mostly fish but what did all these Carcharodontosaurus' feed on? Just the sauropods? Still they're all relatively new discoveries so maybe someone will do a serious study one day, fill in all the missing pieces and make sense of it all.

Until then collecting Moroccan fossils (and if you have a passion for dinosaur fossils and a limited budget you're inevitably going to gravitate to them) is going to be a frustrating business full of question marks.

Yeah I was thinking that in the Kem Kem region, maybe the skeletal material didn't fossilize because of the hot dry weather? Maybe just the teeth fossilized and a very rare amount of skeletal material?

Have they ever found skull material of Carcharadontosaurus?

Haha very true about collecting Moroccan dino fossils. They're cool and pretty cheap, so they are a go to when you want to buy fossils on a budget

[Raptor Lover]

Here's my unidentified Moroccan theropod tooth It's one of my favorite teeth in my collection, I just love the colouring of it and the condition

[Auspex]

...You can see clearly how the raptor has his claw going for the Proto's throat. They are fighting frozen in time...

That is how we interpret what the fossil evidence presents: the predator's kill-claw is positioned at the prey's throat. We cannot know with certainty that it was not moved to that position by the event which buried them, or bu the throes of rigor mortis. Ours may be an accurate interpretation, but we should not present it as fact.

[Raptor Lover]

That is how we interpret what the fossil evidence presents: the predator's kill-claw is positioned at the prey's throat. We cannot know with certainty that it was not moved to that position by the event which buried them, or bu the throes of rigor mortis. Ours may be an accurate interpretation, but we should not present it as fact.

Yeah fair enough It is, though, highly probable as most predators instinctively go for the throat. Also, if we can safely assume that the killing claw was used for stabbing and not gut spilling, then the most efficient place to stab would be the vitals in the neck

[Troodon]

Yeah I was thinking that in the Kem Kem region, maybe the skeletal material didn't fossilize because of the hot dry weather? Maybe just the teeth fossilized and a very rare amount of skeletal material?

Have they ever found skull material of Carcharadontosaurus?

Haha very true about collecting Moroccan dino fossils. They're cool and pretty cheap, so they are a go to when you want to buy fossils on a budget

A paper was written in 2009 on this subject and the author focused on collecting bias. Have not read the paper but here is a snapshot.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-kem-kem-beds-a-paradise-for-predators-89707410/

On your Carch question the answer is yes Sereno found a skull. In fact a paper was published in 2012 that possibly describes a new Carcharodontosaurid based on a skull element found that's different that Carch.

[Troodon]

Here's my unidentified Moroccan theropod tooth It's one of my favorite teeth in my collection, I just love the colouring of it and the condition

Your tooth is currently described as Abelisaurid indet. It's beautiful..

[JohnJ]

That is how we interpret what the fossil evidence presents: the predator's kill-claw is positioned at the prey's throat. We cannot know with certainty that it was not moved to that position by the event which buried them, or bu the throes of rigor mortis. Ours may be an accurate interpretation, but we should not present it as fact.

Exactly. This is not a situation like freezing Han Solo in 'carbonite'. Things don't happen in the wild, in real life, like that.

Animals caught in life threatening scenarios typically abandon the idea of hunting and scramble to safety. Any number of "non-hunter killing" scenarios could juxtapose two animals together. The raptor could have been in the area hunting when the "event" caught several animals off guard. Again, typical animal behavior is to save themselves and eat another time. Struggling for a foothold while falling down a sandy dune or rigor mortis, among other things seems a more likely scenario.

[Raptor Lover]

A paper was written in 2009 on this subject and the author focused on collecting bias. Have not read the paper but here is a snapshot.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-kem-kem-beds-a-paradise-for-predators-89707410/

On your Carch question the answer is yes Sereno found a skull. In fact a paper was published in 2012 that possibly describes a new Carcharodontosaurid based on a skull element found that's different that Carch.

Okay thanks. Was the Carch skull fairly complete? Also strange that they found a skull of Carch but not any other theropods

[Raptor Lover]

Your tooth is currently described as Abelisaurid indet. It's beautiful..

Yeah I just leave the label in there. I'll make a new label one day. Thanks, I really love this tooth

[Runner64]

Yes this is a puzzler, there's Atlasaurus and I've seen fossils of an unnamed (aren't they all!) Ornithomimid for sale. Whats lacking is the basic ornithopod you would have been expecting to be the main prey. Looking at other ecosystems I think first of my local one in the wealden.

What you get is all manner of Iguanodon fossils by the truckload scattered all over the place , assorted Sauropod, Hypsolophidon and Ankylosaur bones and then in greater scarcity the Therapod predators Neovenator and Baryonyx which crop up very rarely.Likewise in Cretaceous north america there seem to be 5 Edmontosaurus finds for every other dinosaur.

So where are they all in Morocco? It could be that their teeth just don't preserve well like Camptosaurus or indeed Iguanodon itself and maybe they are of small size so ignored and discarded when dug up by locals. Its bizarre though when you think of the Kem Kem being practically a mine for Spinosaurus teeth, the largest predator of all. You can explain away that they ate mostly fish but what did all these Carcharodontosaurus' feed on? Just the sauropods? Still they're all relatively new discoveries so maybe someone will do a serious study one day, fill in all the missing pieces and make sense of it all.

Until then collecting Moroccan fossils (and if you have a passion for dinosaur fossils and a limited budget you're inevitably going to gravitate to them) is going to be a frustrating business full of question marks.

Since the Kem Kem Beds are thought to have been a swamp, maybe all the ankylosaurs and hadrosaurids lived further inland, away from the swamp. A swamp biome would not be able to sustain the same level of herbivorous dinosaurs as carnivorous. The only problem with this theory though is why are there so many Carchardontosaurus and raptor teeth? They obviously relied on meat unlike Spino who could survive on fish. If you look at several locations where spino and Carch are found, you'll notice that there are hardly any herbivorous fossils found along with them. Examples would include the Echkar Formation in Niger, Chenini Formation in Tunisia, and Bahariya Formation in Egypt. Sauropods have been found in all of these formations. Is it remotely possible that the apex predator like Carch could have relied on sauropods and raptors were scavengers? I don't think we will be able to come up with any conclusive ideas until more evidence is found but it is fun to ponder about.

[Raptor Lover]

Exactly. This is not a situation like freezing Han Solo in 'carbonite'. Things don't happen in the wild, in real life, like that.

Animals caught in life threatening scenarios typically abandon the idea of hunting and scramble to safety. Any number of "non-hunter killing" scenarios could juxtapose two animals together. The raptor could have been in the area hunting when the "event" caught several animals off guard. Again, typical animal behavior is to save themselves and eat another time. Struggling for a foothold while falling down a sandy dune or rigor mortis, among other things seems a more likely scenario.

That would be pretty cool, just unfreeze them and have your own living velociraptor!

Yeah, very logical. Maybe they will find more skeletons like that in the future to possibly clear things up