CraigHyatt Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 How are unmineralized ancient shells and partially mineralized ancient bones described? Are these technically fossils, or is there a more correct term. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 subfossils 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAtoPA Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 Rather than fossil(ized) I think a better term would be "lithified evidence of the ecosystem". Tony Tony, I like "lithified evidence of the ecosystem"!! That's pretty much perfect for Jane Public, here. I took a Geology 101 course in college (which I aced due to my voracious love of all things rock) but didn't continue on in the sciences. I wish I would have! My Fine Arts curriculum hasn't gotten me anywhere! Thank you to everyone for this fun discussion!! I guess I just knew that it was lithified evidence and using the term "fossilized" was the only thing I could come up with until now. I wonder if there are any actual fossils buried in the layers of that shale????? Hmmm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 ..... I took a Geology 101 course in college (which I aced due to my voracious love of all things rock) but didn't continue on in the sciences. .... For some reason, I loved the Geology 101 course I took, as well. My advisor allowed me to take it because I couldn't pass Chemistry III. ;-) I am amazed at how much geology stuck with me from that one course so many decades ago. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAtoPA Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 there is such a thing as fossil water,BTW. Fluid inclusions(yes, i know my metamorphic petrology )contain fossil water,CO2,and other elements look at eg. fig 3 in the following: http://geology.nwu.edu.cn:81/jxyd/ebook/stru/data/zlwx/zl/3.pdf (bit of a slow download) Doushantuo, that's way above my head! I wouldn't know if I was looking at fossil water, unless it were very obvious! My thought was that some type of eruption of ash landed on a stream bank or beach shore, preserving the sand/mud banks as they were in that moment. I like seeing that record of a bit of time several hundred thousand years ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 When you have ancient surfaces like that, look for ichnofossils. Those are traces of life, like something washed up on the shore, or animal tracks, or animals burrowing. Think about what goes on at the shore, or the activity in shallow water. http://www.google.com/search?q=ichnofossils&btnG=Search&hl=en&gbv=1&tbm=isch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) subfossilsIs a shell with no mineralization at all, e.g. Exogyrus, still called a subfossil or is there a separate term for that case? I've also seen cases where scientists recover mammoth bones in ice. Are these specimens subfossils?Edit: I found the answer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subfossil Basically, the above cases are all subfossils. Edited July 23, 2016 by CraigHyatt Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Is a shell with no mineralization at all, e.g. Exogyrus, still called a subfossil or is there a separate term for that case? I've also seen cases where scientists recover mammoth bones in ice. Are these specimens subfossils? Edit: I found the answer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subfossil Basically, the above cases are all subfossils. I disagree with the Wiki article. Mineralization is not a defining characteristic of whether something is a fossil. The Cretaceous Exogyras and Pleistocene mammoth bones are fossils. 1 The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I disagree with the Wiki article. Mineralization is not a defining characteristic of whether something is a fossil. The Cretaceous Exogyras and Pleistocene mammoth bones are fossils. Your interpretation makes a lot more sense and is a lot less complicated for me to remember. I certainly thought my Exogyra were fossils, for sure. Calling an ancient, extinct animal a "sea shell" is so undignified. ;-) Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 In another discussion, someone pointed out that anything older than 10 000 yrs (or was it older than Holocene? -one or the other) was automatically a fossil, regardless of preservation. It is a somewhat arbitrary boundary, but without it, the debate would never end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 In another discussion, someone pointed out that anything older than 10 000 yrs (or was it older than Holocene? -one or the other) was automatically a fossil, regardless of preservation. It is a somewhat arbitrary boundary, but without it, the debate would never end. Yeah, I go with the holocene 10K year boundary. So a "bone" that is 50K years old is a fossil, and one that is 1000 years old is a bone. So for collecting shells here in Florida you can have a shell that looks extremely fresh, but still be a fossil. And the term subfossil is not used much. And getting too picky about the semantics of it is a useless diversion. Call it what seems logical and most acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAtoPA Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 For some reason, I loved the Geology 101 course I took, as well. My advisor allowed me to take it because I couldn't pass Chemistry III. ;-) I am amazed at how much geology stuck with me from that one course so many decades ago. I couldn't pass Chemistry 1! Even though I did great in chemistry when I was in high school. It's a tough course, right? I think I'd actually do better now that I'm older... but I don't want to spend any more time on that when I could take more geology courses! (With field trips! Ha ha) Yeah, I go with the holocene 10K year boundary. So a "bone" that is 50K years old is a fossil, and one that is 1000 years old is a bone. So for collecting shells here in Florida you can have a shell that looks extremely fresh, but still be a fossil. And the term subfossil is not used much. And getting too picky about the semantics of it is a useless diversion. Call it what seems logical and most acceptable. Tmaier, I found a "newly" fossilized sea biscuit/sand dollar when I was in the Bahamas about 6 years ago. I wasn't able to keep it (LONG STORY) but I always wondered how old it was. It didn't seem like it was that old, but it was no longer calcified, it was definitely fossilized... but it didn't seem like other fossils I've seen. Wish I had it to share, but it's gone! I don't know if I'm allowed back into the Bahamas, ha ha. Do you find fossilized sea creatures in Florida? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 (edited) Don't know if acid racemization works on echinoids.......... Edited July 24, 2016 by doushantuo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 (edited) Tmaier, I found a "newly" fossilized sea biscuit/sand dollar when I was in the Bahamas about 6 years ago. I wasn't able to keep it (LONG STORY) but I always wondered how old it was. It didn't seem like it was that old, but it was no longer calcified, it was definitely fossilized... but it didn't seem like other fossils I've seen. Wish I had it to share, but it's gone! I don't know if I'm allowed back into the Bahamas, ha ha. Do you find fossilized sea creatures in Florida? Long story, you say? Edited July 24, 2016 by CraigHyatt Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAtoPA Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 Long story, you say? LOL I can shorten it to this: I had an amazing collection of shells and a few fossils from a trip to a hidden beach on Grand Island, which were all packed away in my bags. When I was in customs, I didn't mention anything about the coral pieces that I had, because they were all found on the beach, and I considered them part of the shell collection. They were all calcified and falling apart beautifully. The locals referred to the lot as "detritus" so I didn't think much of what I had. They asked if I had any coral, and I said no. They searched my bags and found corals. The customs agent yelled at me for 45 minutes, made me throw away all my shells and the coral, and wanted to put me in jail. She couldn't reach the Prime Minister because it was a Saturday, and he didn't want to come down to the airport for something as lame as this. I assured her that none of what I had collected was from the ocean, including the shells, as I would NEVER collect a live creature. I find that vile. But she didn't believe me, and took it to the letter of the law, and marked my passport with something that caused me and anyone I travelled with to get pulled aside in customs for the next four years. The "indictment" has been lifted, at last, but it was pretty annoying! My personal feeling is that the agent was a cranky pants and wanted to make me cry. Since she couldn't (I worked in construction for 12 years at that point, and no one but my mom could make me cry) so she took her anger out on me however she could... like forcing me to throw all these amazing shells and fossils into a garbage can, and marking my passport. So much for the short version! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 CAtoPA, That is a good story. At the end of the ordeal, you should have yelled "OH YEAH? WELL I'VE BEEN THROWN OFF MUCH BETTER ISLANDS THAN THIS ONE BEFORE!". That would make them puzzled for an hour. Yeah, Florida is a fossil heaven, in a way. Most of the fossils are found near clean clear, cool water, and are tumbling around loose. Collecting is easy. Mostly just stuff from the past 50 million years, though. When sea biscuits fossilize in limestone (most common environment), the shell (called test) is solidified with more calcium deposits, and is called calcite. It is more solid than the original calcium of the test, and often has a yellowish honey color. Here is a Florida sea biscuit from the Eocene that shows a typical petrification. I've had a lot of trouble with customs people. Touchy people, those customs people. I have developed the technique that if one agent (who doesn't seem to be in charge) gives me harassment, I start shouting "HELP! HELP ME!!! STOP THAT! HELP!". Act like you are scared and that the agent is a crazy attacker. Create a scene, and guards will run over, and you will soon meet the person in charge. I've found that if you just allow a crazy incompetent inspector to have their way, you look guilty and they can do whatever they want. When the supervisor comes over, you look like an innocent person who is being attacked by an agent who needs anger management training. I was able to use this technique to get an inspector sent home for the day. I use this technique when it seems the inspector has stepped over the line. It is a free type of training I offer them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAtoPA Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 CAtoPA, That is a good story. At the end of the ordeal, you should have yelled "OH YEAH? WELL I'VE BEEN THROWN OFF MUCH BETTER ISLANDS THAN THIS ONE BEFORE!". That would make them puzzled for an hour. Yeah, Florida is a fossil heaven, in a way. Most of the fossils are found near clean clear, cool water, and are tumbling around loose. Collecting is easy. Mostly just stuff from the past 50 million years, though. When sea biscuits fossilize in limestone (most common environment), the shell (called test) is solidified with more calcium deposits, and is called calcite. It is more solid than the original calcium of the test, and often has a yellowish honey color. Here is a Florida sea biscuit from the Eocene that shows a typical petrification. cross_section.jpg I've had a lot of trouble with customs people. Touchy people, those customs people. I have developed the technique that if one agent (who doesn't seem to be in charge) gives me harassment, I start shouting "HELP! HELP ME!!! STOP THAT! HELP!". Act like you are scared and that the agent is a crazy attacker. Create a scene, and guards will run over, and you will soon meet the person in charge. I've found that if you just allow a crazy incompetent inspector to have their way, you look guilty and they can do whatever they want. When the supervisor comes over, you look like an innocent person who is being attacked by an agent who needs anger management training. I was able to use this technique to get an inspector sent home for the day. I use this technique when it seems the inspector has stepped over the line. It is a free type of training I offer them. Dang! I wish I had thought of that!! When she did bring her supervisor over, he looked and acted SO BORED with it all, that I started to feel a bit of relief. Maybe I wouldn't get thrown in jail like she was saying... but I was still REALLY sad about losing all those amazing shells and few fossils. Not sad enough to return to the Bahamas. I might wait until I'm pretty certain that one customs officer has retired before I go back. Besides, I've never collected in Florida (my birth state) before, and I've heard good things about it! No crazy customs officers to deal with, for one. Nor a need to bring my tainted passport along. Thank you for the awesome advice!! I'm going to take it the next time that happens and conjure up some crocodile tears too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I love being old. I can look pitiful and confused like I might be having a stroke or something. :-) Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I see several movie scripts here.... anyone interested in echinoid taphonomy? or would that be threadjacking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 or would that be threadjacking? We are so far from the original subject already what difference would it make? Tony Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 We are so far from the original subject already what difference would it make? Tony I'm confused. Where am I? Is the war over? Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I'm confused. Where am I? Is the war over? This thread started with a discussion about ripple marks, progressed to a discussion about nomenclature, some shell talk and a trip through customs. And now is moving in another direction---> In the words of Jerry Garcia... "what a long strange trip it's been!!" Keep on truck'n!!!! Tony Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAtoPA Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 This thread started with a discussion about ripple marks, progressed to a discussion about nomenclature, some shell talk and a trip through customs. And now is moving in another direction---> In the words of Jerry Garcia... "what a long strange trip it's been!!" Keep on truck'n!!!! Tony I think this thread should win a nomination for "Most Topics Covered In A Single Thread - 2016" (Since I haven't read too many of the old threads!) It's been super fun, everyone!! Thanks for the info and the laughs!! I see several movie scripts here.... anyone interested in echinoid taphonomy? or would that be threadjacking? We could make a fun mockumentary on scientific discussion of echinoid taphonomy!! We'll ask Christopher Guest to direct and co-write You guys would have to actually be IN it, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sTamprockcoin Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 For PA formations this website is very helpful because you can see road, topo, & geological maps overlaid! http://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/maps/index.html “Beautiful is what we see. More beautiful is what we understand. Most beautiful is what we do not comprehend.” N. Steno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAtoPA Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 For PA formations this website is very helpful because you can see road, topo, & geological maps overlaid! http://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/maps/index.html Thanks!! That is really cool!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now