Antique Fossil

[CraigHyatt]

Me and mama checking out antique stores in Uvalde, TX. Saw this item advertised as a "fossil". Curious what the heck it is.

Tag says "orthocera" but how come so many of them are stuck together like that?

Edited July 24, 2016 by CraigHyatt

[Pumpkinhead]

It's a bunch of polished orthocone nautiloids. They're usually just labelled "orthoceras." I think most of the stuff that looks like that is from Morocco, I have one at home that I won as a kid

[GeschWhat]

I agree with Pumpkinhead. These are a huge export item from Morocco. I'm not saying it is the case with this particular specimen, but sometimes, when they are all facing the same direction and in a pile, the orthocones are thought to have been clustered like that because they were regurgitated. Kind of like an owl pellet.

[Pumpkinhead]

I agree with Pumpkinhead. These are a huge export item from Morocco. I'm not saying it is the case with this particular specimen, but sometimes, when they are all facing the same direction and in a pile, the orthocones are thought to have been clustered like that because they were regurgitated. Kind of like an owl pellet.

I always thought that the alignment of the cephalopods was the result of the current arranging them in the same direction after they died. Where did you hear about the regurgitation explanation?

[Herb]

I think they were aligned that way due to current flow prior to being fossilized. They are a squid-like cephalopod and they lived in those shells.Those came from Morocco.

[abyssunder]

I agree that it is from Morocco, I also have a few, labelled as "Orthoceras".

" Originally Orthoceras referred to all nautiloids with a straight-shell, called an "orthocone" (Fenton & Fenton 1958:40). But later research on their internal structures, such as the siphuncle, cameral deposits, and others, showed that these actually belong to a number of groups, even different orders.

In the authoritative Treatise on Invertebrate Paleontology, the name Orthoceras is now only used to refer to the type species O. regulare (Schlotheim 1820) from the Middle Ordovician of Estonia, Lithuania, Sweden and parts of the former Soviet Union such as Ukraine and Belarus. The genus might include a few related species. " - Wikipedia

[tmaier]

Another possibility that people overlook is that the cephalopods were arranged that way by some paleozoic creature with OCD.

Need to keep an open mind...

[CraigHyatt]

Another possibility that people overlook is that the cephalopods were arranged that way by some paleozoic creature with OCD.

Need to keep an open mind...

Or maybe like those cows who (supposedly) align themselves to magnetic fields. :-)

[snolly50]

Scrutiny will reveal that an artisan has carved and polished "pointy" shapes in the fossil rich stone. The stone is filled with shells of various sizes. The carved shapes (suggesting the configuration of a straight nautiloid shell) attempt (sometimes) to follow the lines of a preserved shell. They are indeed real fossils, but the presentation is contrived by human hand. As stated above, these are most often IDed as orthoceras. They are very common Moroccan exports. For this reason I view the dealers price as... well...optimistic. I like the railroad spike below it.

[CraigHyatt]

I don't really collect fossils, but there was a lot of cool stuff in the shops. The bad news is, it was stuff I pretty much grew up with, so I was a tad miffed they were calling them antiques. ;-)

[tmaier]

I don't really collect fossils, but there was a lot of cool stuff in the shops.

There are some classic fossils that are fantastic and cheap, such as these Moroccan cephalopods, Elrathia kingii trilobites from Wheeler formation, Knightia fish from Green River formation, etc. I don't buy fossils, either, but I do have those classics because I just could not resist buying them when I had them in my hands.

A good thread would be to make a list of common and cheap fantastic fossils like above.

[JohnBrewer]

Yes orthoceras. This is what they look like 'raw' https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Orthoceras_Limestone_Erfoud_Maroc.jpg

I prefer raw in my collection hidden away in my collection draws but as ornaments they do look pretty cool. One reason why they're cheap is labour is cheap in Morocco. If you had a raw slab shipped the western world it would cost a fortune to get them polished to this standard.

[JohnBrewer]

I don't really collect fossils, but there was a lot of cool stuff in the shops. The bad news is, it was stuff I pretty much grew up with, so I was a tad miffed they were calling them antiques. ;-)

'Antique' in the uk generally means over 100 years so this certainly is an antique. Antiques for tax purposes, if certified by an antique dealer, don't attract VAT, an European tax https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates.

[CraigHyatt]

'Antique' in the uk generally means over 100 years so this certainly is an antique. Antiques for tax purposes, if certified by an antique dealer, don't attract VAT, an European tax https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates.

I was joking about the other antique stuff in the shop (not the fossils) making me feel old (which I am). For example, it was strange for me to see 8-track tapes for sale in an antique shop. Of course, they don't meet the 100 year rule, but I am sure that to some younger folks they might as well be from the Dark Ages. Calling the fossils "antique" in the title was also a joke. :-)

Edited July 24, 2016 by CraigHyatt

[Guguita2104]

I agree that it is from Morocco, I also have a few, labelled as "Orthoceras".

" Originally Orthoceras referred to all nautiloids with a straight-shell, called an "orthocone" (Fenton & Fenton 1958:40). But later research on their internal structures, such as the siphuncle, cameral deposits, and others, showed that these actually belong to a number of groups, even different orders.

In the authoritative Treatise on Invertebrate Paleontology, the name Orthoceras is now only used to refer to the type species O. regulare (Schlotheim 1820) from the Middle Ordovician of Estonia, Lithuania, Sweden and parts of the former Soviet Union such as Ukraine and Belarus. The genus might include a few related species. " - Wikipedia

I vote for Geisenoceras (generalized sense for many orthoconic nautiloids).

Regards,

[JohnBrewer]

I was joking about the other antique stuff in the shop (not the fossils) making me feel old (which I am). For example, it was strange for me to see 8-track tapes for sale in an antique shop. Of course, they don't meet the 100 year rule, but I am sure that to some younger folks they might as well be from the Dark Ages. Calling the fossils "antique" in the title was also a joke. :-)

I remember my best friend at school his parents had an 8 track in the car. We only had a radio

Edited July 25, 2016 by JohnBrewer

[CraigHyatt]

I remember my best friend at school his parents had an 8 track in the car. We only had a radio

When I complained, my smart aleck wife said "You used to just collect fossils. Now you *are* one!" :-)

[GeschWhat]

I always thought that the alignment of the cephalopods was the result of the current arranging them in the same direction after they died. Where did you hear about the regurgitation explanation?

HERE and HERE are a couple of 2002 articles (the second has photos). Sorry, I was off. It was proven for the belemnites in England, not the straight nautiloids in Morocco. I think I always just equated the two.

[Herb]

Another possibility that people overlook is that the cephalopods were arranged that way by some paleozoic creature with OCD.

Need to keep an open mind...

[CraigHyatt]

I always thought that the alignment of the cephalopods was the result of the current arranging them in the same direction after they died. Where did you hear about the regurgitation explanation?

I would have guessed the alignment was from the shells falling or rolling into a trench. One end would tend to be heavier and hit first aligning the pointy ends, then the trench would have aligned them all roughly parallel. That seems like at least one simple possibility.

[doushantuo]

those are current-imbricated and a pointer to a very time specific (Paleozoic)facies.The reason for the accumulation could be manifold:mass strandings after reproduction,stratigraphic condensation,accumulation by specific hydrodynamics(longshore currents).They are considered useful in unraveling proximality(bathymetric) trends,perhaps indicative of nearshore deposition.

What you have there many people consider commonplace,while,ironically,it is the exact opposite of that

A wacke-/packstone in a more micritic matrix,intact septa(no implosion!),just your ordinary Orthoceras piece,sure.

Keep it.

It might be commonplace,but is is also enigmatic and wonderful,as are all fossils.

What might these be?

A size/age cohort,all specimens being of the same ontogenetic age?All young?

All females?

Did they die in situ?

Edited July 25, 2016 by doushantuo

[CraigHyatt]

those are current-imbricated and a pointer to a very time specific (Paleozoic)facies.The reason for the accumulation could be manifold:mass strandings after reproduction,stratigraphic condensation,accumulation by specific hydrodynamics(longshore currents).They are considered useful in unraveling proximality(bathymetric) trends,perhaps indicative of nearshore deposition.

What you have there many people consider commonplace,while,ironically,it is the exact opposite of that

A wacke-/packstone in a more micritic matrix,intact septa(no implosion!),just your ordinary Orthoceras piece,sure.

Keep it.

It might be commonplace,but is is also enigmatic and wonderful,as are all fossils.

What might these be?

A size/age cohort,all specimens being of the same ontogenetic age?All young?

All females?

Did they die in situ?

As you know, I am kind of obsessed with extinction events. I wonder if any of these clusters are from a mass die-off or even mass trauma, e.g. a shock wave, blackout, rapid temperature change. A while back, for example, I posted a pile of ammonites that were all roughly the same size and all clustered together in a neat little pile. As you say so eloquently, it's quite a marvel to find something like this. Edited July 25, 2016 by CraigHyatt

[Herb]

I remember my best friend at school his parents had an 8 track in the car. We only had a radio

I installed my 8 track in my 1967 Ford

[abyssunder]

" The cephalopod assemblage of the Upper Fezouata Formation is interpreted here mainly as (par-)autochthonously deposited. Potentially water currents induced local concentrations and the alignment of the dead shells (locality Z-F24). The faunal deposition and general morphology of the cephalopods, as well as the depositional environment can be best compared with both the Saint-Chinian (late Tremadocian) and La Maurerie (latest Tremadocian – early Floian) formations of Montagne Noire (Kroger & Evans 2011) (Table 1). " - According to Bjorn Kroger and Bertrand Lefebvre, in Palaeogeography and palaeoecology of early Floian (Early Ordovician) cephalopods from the Upper Fezouata Formation, Anti-Atlas, Morocco.pdf

http://www.foss-rec.net/15/61/2012/fr-15-61-2012.pdf

[Herb]

fossils of the same size, shape and weight tend to cluster together in current