Mystery circular fossil with radial ridges and grooves

[EMP]

Coral polyps? They're common enough in the Oriskany and Needmore

[Rockwood]

1 hour ago, EMP said:

Coral polyps? They're common enough in the Oriskany and Needmore

If you want to count the ridges there is likely mathematical evidence.

Not fond of math myself. 

[abyssunder]

They are crinoid columnal imprints and infill material between eroded columnals preserving the crenulae imprint in different preservation status. They are slightly curved in shape from the distal end perimeter to the center (lumen/axial canal) in both sides (upper and lower), also, some of the crenulae (not all) could be bifurcated in the distal margin - as could be seen in the very first picture of the O.P. and in the picture I've posted.

[Fossildude19]

4 hours ago, EMP said:

Coral polyps? They're common enough in the Oriskany and Needmore

 

Nope. Crinoid columnals.  

[EMP]

12 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

17 hours ago, EMP said:

Coral polyps? They're common enough in the Oriskany and Needmore

 

Nope. Crinoid columnals.

 

 

They're the oddest crinoid columnals I've ever seen from this formation then .

[Fossildude19]

 

1 hour ago, EMP said:

 

They're the oddest crinoid columnals I've ever seen from this formation then .

 

After 22 years of fossil hunting, you kind of see just about every type of preservation of different fossils.

Especially when you have those types of fossils in your area.

I've see tons of crinoid columnal imprints just like this. 

I don't collect partial things like that, so I don't think I have any examples, but, ... I am pretty confident (99.9%) that these are just crinoid columnals.  

 

[TqB]

What Tim said. 

[doushantuo]

 

9,4 Mb,good photogrphic documentation

 

[EMP]

I've collected from that formation for going on nine years, and those are unlike any crinoid columnal I've found before. 

[ynot]

On 3/14/2017 at 0:36 PM, ynot said:

Hey Alex,

Welcome to TFF!

Can You post a picture of the second item from the side?

 

On 3/14/2017 at 1:59 PM, ynot said:

The second piece also appears to be conical rather than flat. I have not seen a cone shaped column segment. (why I asked for a side view, to see if it is an optical illusion of the picture.)

 

On 3/14/2017 at 2:23 PM, ynot said:

 

 

PS I was taking a closer look and the new picture is of the wrong piece. Can You post a picture of the other piece from the same angle as that?

 

 

On 3/14/2017 at 2:33 PM, AlexT said:

I see.  I didn't realize that.  That makes sense now.  

 

ynot, all of the pictures have been of the same one except for the second in my first post that had two smaller sheared ones.  Is that what you want to see?  Thanks, Alex

 

On 3/14/2017 at 3:10 PM, ynot said:

Yes.

 

 

I would still like to see a picture of the second item from the side.

[Fossildude19]

48 minutes ago, EMP said:

I've collected from that formation for going on nine years, and those are unlike any crinoid columnal I've found before. 

 

The Mahantango Formation?  You mentioned the Oriskany and Needmore formations earlier.   

 

On 3/14/2017 at 2:51 PM, AlexT said:

These are common fossils at a site in Hedgesville, WV.  Jasper Burns, in his book Fossil Collecting in the Mid-Atlantic States, dates these rocks to the Devonian, specifically the Mahantango formation which I understand was laid down about 392 and 385mya.  

 

Do you have any pictures of rugose corals that look like this?  

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, ... but I am just not seeing anything about these that say coral to me. 

 

Here is what I am seeing:

 

 

[AlexT]

1 hour ago, ynot said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would still like to see a picture of the second item from the side.

 

Ok I will try to get that picture for you.  I had the luxury of being stuck at home during the snow the other day which gave me the time to take and post the photos but as soon as I get a chance I will post them.

[EMP]

2 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

3 hours ago, EMP said:

I've collected from that formation for going on nine years, and those are unlike any crinoid columnal I've found before. 

 

The Mahantango Formation?  You mentioned the Oriskany and Needmore formations earlier.

 

 

Ok, the Needmore Shale together with the Marcellus Shale and the Mahantango Formation are all similar lithological units grouped together as the Hamilton Group. Aside from a few brachiopod and trilobite species, the three formations have a very similar fauna, and I have collected in all of them for the past nine years as well as the Oriskany Sandstone, which has coral polyp fossils that are remarkably similar to the pictures here. 

 

In all of that time collecting I have never come across a crinoid columnal like the ones pictured here, and in the Jasper Burns book mentioned earlier similar objects were labeled as coral polyps. The ones I have come across are all fairly small and flattened without a raised conical section. The conical nature of this and the number of "segments"/lines/whatever you want to call it indicate coral polyp to me. 

[Fossildude19]

24 minutes ago, EMP said:

...and in the Jasper Burns book mentioned earlier similar objects were labeled as coral polyps. The ones I have come across are all fairly small and flattened without a raised conical section. The conical nature of this and the number of "segments"/lines/whatever you want to call it indicate coral polyp to me. 

 

I'm really just trying to understand  - is there a picture or figure of the coral polyps mentioned in the Jasper Burns book?

Did the Burns book give any kind of identification? Not owning this book, I have no idea, really.   

 

I have a few very small horn/rugose corals from the Hamilton group in Western New York, (Hadrophyllum sp) but they look nothing like the items pictured here.  

They look like small rugose corals, maybe a bit more button-like.  But the lines go all the way to the center of those.

 

I'm familiar with Microcyclus sp, and Hadrophyllum sp., but again, they really don't look too much like these.  

 

I would like to be certain about what we are looking at here. Lacking other evidence, I have to stick with crinoid columnal imprints. 

Regards,

 

 

 

[AlexT]

Here is a link to the passage from Burns's book which is accessible through google books (I hope it shows up well after the link):  https://books.google.com/books?id=5rAnVerOIbgC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=fossils+hedgesville+wv&source=bl&ots=52KDv8pP8B&sig=kxDM84lU2IGsdOXq_4Odhk9mxvU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_1L_12dvSAhVih1QKHdr1BokQ6AEILDAD#v=onepage&q=fossils hedgesville wv&f=false

 

[AlexT]

Looking at it again, he lists, but does not illustrate, "crinoid stems and segments."  I don't think I gave him enough credit originally.

[Fossildude19]

Thanks for the link, Alex.  

And the coral he lists is Heterophrentis sp., a rugose (horn) coral.  

 

EDIT:  Here is a picture of crinoid columnals, some of which exhibit the same "edge only" striations. 

 

[westcoast]

https://journals.lib.unb.ca/journalimages/AGEO/2016/Vol_52/ageo52art09_fig6.jpg

This publication shows crinoid columnals that have a convex articulation facet. Not all columnals are planar.

[AlexT]

36 minutes ago, westcoast said:

https://journals.lib.unb.ca/journalimages/AGEO/2016/Vol_52/ageo52art09_fig6.jpg

This publication shows crinoid columnals that have a convex articulation facet. Not all columnals are planar.

 

Many of those look very similar, except the time frame given in the article seems to be early Silurian.   From other sources, it looks like the Jones Creek formation(referenced in the article) is dated to around 432mya, whereas the Mahantango Devonian age rocks from which my fossils came seem to be dated around 392-385mya.  

 

Do you have a link to the other pages of the article?  Thanks, Alex

[Fossildude19]

2 minutes ago, AlexT said:

 

Many of those look very similar, except the time frame given in the article seems to be early Silurian.  

 

Although more information specific to your site is preferable( and desired by you)  , it doesn't really matter the time period, as crinoids from both eras would most likely preserve the same ways in similar depositional environments.  

 Crinoids is crinoids.  Parts is parts. 

[AlexT]

1 minute ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

Although more information specific to your site is preferable( and desired by you)  , it doesn't really matter the time period, as crinoids from both eras would most likely preserve the same ways in similar depositional environments.  

 Crinoids is crinoids.  Parts is parts. 

 

If that's the case, I guess I'll have to live with it.  One promising thing about that article page was that it seemed to identify the examples by genus/species.  And you're right.  I'd love to know if the same species endured for 40 million years.

[abyssunder]

Believe me, they are all crinoid columnal imprints as I said way back, or as stated in S. K. Donovan, R. F. Miller. 2007. Silurian crinoids of the new Brunswick Museum, Saint John, Canada. Atlantic Geology Volume 52. - external molds/articular facets (correctly exemplified by westcoast). I have no doubts about this.

[AlexT]

21 minutes ago, abyssunder said:

Believe me, they are all crinoid columnal imprints as I said way back, or as stated in S. K. Donovan, R. F. Miller. 2007. Silurian crinoids of the new Brunswick Museum, Saint John, Canada. Atlantic Geology Volume 52. - external molds/articular facets (correctly exemplified by westcoast). I have no doubts about this.

 

I'm convinced, too, based on what everyone has said.  At this point I'd like to keep digging to identify by genus or species, but I know it may not be possible.

[EMP]

I've still got to go with polyp on this one, sorry.

 

 

 

[Fossildude19]

24 minutes ago, EMP said:

I've still got to go with polyp on this one, sorry.

 

 

 

 

No need to apologize.  

But I'm honestly interested in finding out why you are sticking with that assessment. What are you basing your opinions on?

 

Do you have an ID for that photo?

 

I really would just like to get to the bottom of this.  

I'm just looking for your supporting evidence, and I am having a heck of a time finding anything similar in My google searches.