ASG Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 1. Are there a lot of fakes, and are they good enough for me to worry? If so, how do i spot them? 2. Do I need to worry about any long term damage with my fossils? any way to preserve them, or should they be fine? 3. Does anyone have a any good display suggestions? 4. From what I have read, some people don't like repaired fossils, is this true? if so, what about polished fossils? Mega Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Fakes, it depends on what type of fossil you are looking for. Trilos, there are tons of fakes, and yes there are some good ones. Some you would have to heat a pin and try to stick it into the "fossil". Damage, not sure what would damage your fossil. It depends on what type of fossils you have. Pyrite fossils can be damaged by different things. Displays, also depends on what you have. Sharks teeth look good in rikers mounts, or if larger teeth, on plastic stands. A good display case is good to have to display your fossils. Repaired fossils, most people do not like them. It brings the value down. Polished fossils, well do a search and look at that last thread about polished megs. Its a NO NO. Everyone has their own opinion, so stay tuned for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 1. Are there a lot of fakes, and are they good enough for me to worry? If so, how do i spot them?2. Do I need to worry about any long term damage with my fossils? any way to preserve them, or should they be fine? 3. Does anyone have a any good display suggestions? 4. From what I have read, some people don't like repaired fossils, is this true? if so, what about polished fossils? Mega 1. Yes, as Jax noted, it seems like trilobites are among the fossils most often "faked," but that term can include minor restoration that makes a specimen less fragile as well as more attractive. Other fossils like bones or teeth may have repairs or missing pieces made less visible or not visible through artful restoring and painting. Most inexpensive fossils are not worth adding restoration to though you might want to fix up something you find yourself. You can get help here, but as a friend once advised someone asking your questions, you really need to try to become your own expert. It's like collecting coins, stamps, or art. You can live in fear, depending on the opinions of others, or you can try informing yourself, still asking for second opinions, but recognizing what must be a fake and what is probably genuine. 2. Preservation will depend on the fossil. Bones and teeth are often fine as they are though a coating of glue or shellac is advisable for bones. Amber requires special attention. Some pyrite-replaced fossils can dissolve into powder and there's not much you can do about that. 3. Yeah, display ideas are all about personal taste. There is a section of this site for questions and comment about member collections and you will find discussion and photos of various kinds of display cases and mounts. 4. If a piece of your fossil (whether you bought it or found it) breaks off, you will want to glue it back in most cases. Some repaired fossils are still very desirable, especially if they are rare/unique. Most shark tooth collectors don't want repaired teeth or restored teeth but if a piece of root broke off, I would glue it back rather than toss it in the garbage. Polished fossils can be nice if the specimens are not made to look too much like costume jewelry. I've seen some sand dollars and shark teeth that look nice with a polish but sometimes dealers go overboard. Again, that's more of a personal choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 yes there are faked and extensively and minorly repaired fossils. yes it's very much a problem because some people put large prices on stuff that isn't even real. your best defense is to study the issue until you know a lot about it. if you do not have a discerning eye - an ability to spot detail and tell when something isn't "right", then you'd be well served to stay away from buying fossils of certain types from certain sources. damage and preservation - your question was broad. some fossils need major stabilization and will probably still turn to dust. others need nothing. there are a number of topics on this forum discussing this issue. try using the search function on the words "preservation", "consolidation", "consolidant", "vinac", "butvar", etc. display suggestions - several recent and on-going topics on that. repaired/polished fossils - seems like most collectors of most things frown on alteration. the value of many collectibles can be harmed by alterations. depends on the buyer. fossil collectors make a huge distinction between "preparing" a fossil and altering it. cleaning matrix off, stabilizing, gluing a crack, etc. are frequently considered "must do" items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 A lot depends on what the item is. For example this Captorhinus skull was found in many tiny pieces in the rock and was reassembled by an expert preparer. You cannot find a unrepaired skull of this. It is the exception rather than the rule to find a larger skull without some repair. This does not devrease their value unless the repairs and replacements are significant. TB fakes are common, especially the Moroccan. Generally if a Morrocan trilobite hasn't been glued somewhere odds are it's fake because they have to break them to find them and then reassemble. The hot needle tells you if it's a resin replacemnt or mold. I am totally against (as many are) polishing fossils to make them "pretty" with the exception of some things like Petrified wood and Amber can be improved by polishing. But others like Meg teeth are actually damaged by the procedure. I am ok with restoring a tooth if it is labeled as such. For smaller or more delecate fossils a Riker mount is a fine way to display and they come in a variety of sizes. My big stuff are all on shelves I had built to display. Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASG Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Hi all, Thanks for the answers so far. I mainly will try to collect shark teeth (as I have a sourse for that, and seem to get them at 1/3 of ebay prices, they are not polished or restored either. I will, however, eventually get a Trilobite, a ew dinosaur pieces, and mammal like pieces. I also want to get some Amber, but I expect Amber to be higher end on the budget. I also will want to eventually get some plant, fish, and insect impression type fossils. Looks like the dinosaur stuff is up there in price, but most of what I see is very within my budget where I will still be able to pay for my ancient coin addiction. I am not looking to get a large collection (although, if I keep going, that's what it'll be..lol) but I want to get some smaller pieces to have, and some higher end, impressive fossils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 All answers will be revealed to you in time Grasshopper. But till then read past post there are several on fakes and displaying. Many fossils have to be repaired but a good dealer will sale it as repaired or restored Galveston Island 32 miles long 2 miles wide 134 bars 23 liquor stores any questions? Evolution is Chimp Change. Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain! "I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen." Ernest Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Another pitfall is misidentified/misrepresented fossils. You have to educate yourself a bit about the various pieces of interest to you (which for me is 9/10ths of the fun). Insist on fossils with good data attached; this will enhance the item's value, shield you (some) from the undocumentated "floaters" out there, and accelerate your learning process. With a name and/or site of origin, you can Google up a wealth of fascinating info about your acquisition. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASG Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 shield you (some) from the undocumentated "floaters" out there I can get in trouble for collecting fossils? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I can get in trouble for collecting fossils? At most city, state, and federal parks, it is illegal to remove anything. There are many other laws and regulations you should become familiar with if you start self-collecting. As far as buying goes, only stolen or black-market material carries the specter of legal action. For fossils, good documentation is the bottom line. (Fossils with no provenance are what I call "float"; they might be able to pose gracefully on a display stand, but what use are they beyond being decorative?) "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 <snip>2. Preservation will depend on the fossil. Bones and teeth are often fine as they are though a coating of glue or shellac is advisable for bones. <snip> Never, never COAT bones or teeth with glue or shellac, particularly avoid shellac. Here is a thread elsewhere on the forum with a discussion on preserving bones and teeth . . . PRESERVING FOSSILS http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fig rocks Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 One exception to #4 is polishing and stabilizing ammolite ammonites. Polishing greatly increases their value(they are now considered a precious gem) and stabilizing with a high quality epoxy is a must if you want your fossil to last(they're very fragile). They are so valuable that even fossils found in hundreds of pieces have been reassembled by the pros! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smilodon Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Never, never COAT bones or teeth with glue or shellac, particularly avoid shellac. ---------------------------------- Harry, what's your take on shellac? I forget who once commented to me that he had seen thousand of bones coated with shellac after being out of the ground for 100 or 200 years (obviously in museum backrooms) that were fine, but we only know how they hold up for 20 or 30 years preserved with "modern" chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopocetus Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 My understanding with shellac is it does preserve the fossils well but it ruins any possibility of studying the fossil on a microscopic level. I'm sure Harry will be able to correct or elaborate on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 One exception to #4 is polishing and stabilizing ammolite ammonites. Polishing greatly increases their value(they are now considered a precious gem) and stabilizing with a high quality epoxy is a must if you want your fossil to last(they're very fragile). They are so valuable that even fossils found in hundreds of pieces have been reassembled by the pros! Fig makes a valid point but to clarify: Note that the above statement refers to the value of Ammonites as a "Gem". Such polished specimens are sought for their attractiveness, but are actually reduced in their scientific value. As I said above. Do you want collect a fossil or a ornamental nik nak? Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fig rocks Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Fig makes a valid point but to clarify:Note that the above statement refers to the value of Ammonites as a "Gem". Such polished specimens are sought for their attractiveness, but are actually reduced in their scientific value. As I said above. Do you want collect a fossil or a ornamental nik nak? Up here Frank if you want to sell them the University has to look at them first and if they're of any scientific value, whoops you've lost your fossil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smilodon Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Up here Frank if you want to sell them the University has to look at them first and if they're of any scientific value, whoops you've lost your fossil! Correct me if I'm wrong, but after inspection doesn't each one get a number that is placed in a governmental registry too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Polished Ammolite ammonites are spectacularly beautiful. If I had place to display one and the money to buy it, I would (scientific value be damned)! That said, it would be peripheral to my fossil collection at best. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 shellac used to be used for a great many applications for which it is no longer used. i have not read of any museums currently recommending its use over vinac, butvar, etc. there are several general principles that tend to govern what is used professionally. the first is that a good consolidant should tend to penetrate the fossil, so that you don't just end up with a surface "skin" covering with an unprotected, deteriorating, weak interior. for this reason, many consolidants are thin mixtures, except when used to stick broken pieces together. a second consideration is whether the consolidant will shrink, yellow, chemically break down, be acidic, etc. a final point is crosslinking, which i never seem to hear anyone mention here. if you've got common fossils that nobody will care about after you kick off, then ok. but the first-do-no-harm concept really applies if you've found something good that everyone will want forever. when a preservative "crosslinks" to a fossil at the molecular level, it can't be removed. that means, if the consolidant you use starts to mess up the fossil in a few decades, or if a super-gee-whiz perfect consolidant is developed in the future, and somebody wants to re-do the old fossil in the new consolidant, they can't. so proprietary stuff with secret formulas are out, and stuff with known propensity to crosslink are out. but there's plenty of information to be read online regarding the properties of the available products, so good luck with your preservation efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 asg - a couple of other things. don't give up on finding fossils yourself. read up online and find out where there nearest decent places to hunt are, and go find some yourself. you'll discover that the memories to go with the fossils are really cool to have. second thing - when you go after that amber you mentioned, be careful. much of what is sold isn't amber but a younger substance called copal. also, amber can be "reconstituted" with bugs and junk in it that wasn't really there in the first place. you need to know what you're doing with amber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fig rocks Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Correct me if I'm wrong, but after inspection doesn't each one get a number that is placed in a governmental registry too?Yes it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 So Fig ammonites are in the governmental registry. So if you sell it you have to transfer title. Galveston Island 32 miles long 2 miles wide 134 bars 23 liquor stores any questions? Evolution is Chimp Change. Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain! "I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen." Ernest Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Polished Ammolite ammonites are spectacularly beautiful. If I had place to display one and the money to buy it, I would (scientific value be damned)! That said, it would be peripheral to my fossil collection at best. You can have the one I didn't buy... I have a nice 80 pounder from Canada the polishers will never get near... Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleoPutz Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 asg - a couple of other things. don't give up on finding fossils yourself. read up online and find out where there nearest decent places to hunt are, and go find some yourself. you'll discover that the memories to go with the fossils are really cool to have.second thing - when you go after that amber you mentioned, be careful. much of what is sold isn't amber but a younger substance called copal. also, amber can be "reconstituted" with bugs and junk in it that wasn't really there in the first place. you need to know what you're doing with amber. I haven't had much luck searching like that... I would love to find my own fossils. However, I can hardly find any good hunting places that aren't on private property. Usually, I just find vague locales that aren't any good to begin with. If you have tips on improving my search techniques, I am open to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I haven't had much luck searching like that... I would love to find my own fossils. However, I can hardly find any good hunting places that aren't on private property. Usually, I just find vague locales that aren't any good to begin with. If you have tips on improving my search techniques, I am open to them. well, your profile shows "northeast oklahoma". googling is free, so google "oklahoma +rockhounds", "geologic map of oklahoma", "oklahoma fossils", "oklahoma +fossils +localities", "tulsa +fossils", etc. etc. find the rockhounds and fossil fanatics within your area. they're out there. make friends with them and ask them to help you figure out how to find better fossils. oklahoma is a good place to find fossils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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