New Mazon Creek Collection

[bigred97]

Last one from the Creek for awhile (until my finds from this year's trip on Saturday starting opening up!). I'm wondering if this might be a coprolite. It's filled with a darkish material, some of which seem like crystals. I looked at it carefully through my 10x loupe and I can't see any kind of plant debris or anything like that. Can you tell if a MC fossil is a coprolite just by look? Or does it have to have a certain shape, or digested material apparent? Or is this something I should toss in the garden?

[Coco]

Hi,

 

@GeschWhat

 

Coco

[Mark Kmiecik]

Could you please post photos of the outer surface of the specimen? The outside of the concretion?

[bigred97]

Hi Mark, here are some pics of the outside of the concretion. Chris

[Mark Kmiecik]

I'm still scratching my head on this one. It could be a coprolite, but the overall impression I get says "no". However, you may want to take a close look at this area under 10x.

 

[bigred97]

Hi Mark, I finally got some free time to try to take a better shot of that area. I wish I could take better macro shots, I'm researching some options for that with my iphone. But for now this is the best I can do. I will say that I also looked at that area with my 10x loupe and I can't see any texture, just a brownish color. Thanks! Chris

[Mark Kmiecik]

Everything I see on the back of this concretion suggests vegetative forest floor debris, and the specimen itself seems too two-dimensional, so I'm leaning towards "no" on the coprolite ID.

 

P.S. -- Your photos are fine; as a matter of fact, they are better than most. If those are taken with a phone you would dangerous with a devoted camera, and I mean that in a good way.

[bigred97]

Thanks, Mark, very kind of you to say that. I've spent a fair amount of time trying different set-ups with my iphone and my best luck is with lots of sunlight and using the digital zoom while experimenting with holding the phone at different distances (usually 4-6 inches away I believe). But I think using the zoom adds more pixilization to the photo, so I'm looking into other options. I would like to be able to get closer in with less distortion at some point.

 

I agree with you on the coprolite, I really don't think that's what it is.

[bigred97]

It's been close to three weeks since this year's trip to the Creek and so far no concretions have opened with fossils inside. My wife went on the trip with me and she has a container for the freezer and so do I, so we will see who has the best luck. So far, we have only each had one dud open up, it looks like this. In both of these concretions every single "plate" came loose and there was no fossil anywhere.

 

We did find some interesting open concretions on our trip, though, so I will post some of those next. Generally, open ones will have at least some of the detail worn away, but you can still find some good ones.

[bigred97]

First from the Creek is this open fern. It's pretty worn and I'm not even sure why I took it. But when I looked at it more closely at home, I found a bit of a mystery. There are 2 black areas on the outside of the concretion that look like some kind of insect body parts:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bigred97]

 

I can't imagine these are fossils. They seem to be on the outside of the concretion and the concretion is already opened with something, a faint fern, present. So it must be something that somehow attached itself after the concretion split open. But what is it? I can't seem to think of what it might be. I looked at pictures of dragonflies and crayfish and they don't seem to resemble this. Also note that while they are black, they are shiny in the light.

[bigred97]

After I looked at those 2 areas with my 10x loupe, I decided to look over every other surface of the concretion. On the back towards the bottom is a little black dot:

 

It looks like part of a compound eye! Here are some close-ups:

 

 

I finally looked at it through my microscope, and took a picture through the eyepiece with my iPhone, which didn't turn out too bad:

 

So I'm curious to know what this might be if anyone has an idea. It's probably something obvious that I'm just missing...

[RCFossils]

11 hours ago, bigred97 said:

First from the Creek is this open fern. It's pretty worn and I'm not even sure why I took it. But when I looked at it more closely at home, I found a bit of a mystery. There are 2 black areas on the outside of the concretion that look like some kind of insect body parts:

  

This is really interesting it appears to be the body of a very rare trigonotarbid (arachnid).

Not sure about the others but quite exciting,

[Mark Kmiecik]

Looks like a compound eye in that last photo and I'm wondering if one of the other "bits" looks like a trilo-bit. It may be arthropod parts. I don't recall ever seeing a MC trilobite. I have no idea what it is, but don't lose that, and do treat it with tender loving care. I have a feeling it may be scientifically significant. Whatever it is, it is at least extremely rare.

 

P.S. -- I think there may be more fossil something in that concretion. Many MC concretions have surficial as well as multiple internal specimens, but DO NOT  attempt to freeze/thaw that one. We need to get some professionals to look at this item.

11 hours ago, bigred97 said:

 

[bigred97]

Thanks RC and Mark! That certainly is very exciting to hear. I thought trilobite right away but couldn't match what I was seeing to pictures of trilobites. I do see a similar shape to trigonotarbids. I'll have to spend some time over the weekend looking at more pictures.

 

I am still a little skeptical, though, that this isn't just something modern that got stuck onto the outside of an opened concretion. For one thing, one of the pieces is stuck to the fern itself, and the others are not. If this was somehow preserved when the concretion formed, wouldn't they all be on the outside of the concretion?

 

So I think I will also look at pictures of modern creatures from the area. But I guess then I have a similar question about how this would have formed. It seems unlikely that a modern insect would decay and break into pieces and get attached in 3 different pieces to this one concretion.

 

So I don't understand how it can be either. If either of you have a better understanding of this, and why you are certain, if you still are, that it is indeed a fossil, I would really love to hear it!

 

Thanks again! Chris

[Mark Kmiecik]

Trigonotarbids are an extinct order of arachnids and therefore these are fossils that formed shortly? after/during the time the concretion did. Relatively close in age, in other words. Trilobites are also extinct, as you know, so the mystery is when and how did this happen. That's what makes this a significant specimen. 

 

Do the three bits extend below the surface/matrix of the concretion? It's difficult to tell from the photos. If so, then these bits were deposited at a transitional state in the forrmation of the concretion and gives us possible insights into the process of fossilization itself.

[bigred97]

I looked at the 2 larger parts again through a 10x loupe. I cannot see any evidence that they extend into the surface of the concretion. They look like they are just sitting on top of the surface. With the "eye", it's hard to tell.

 

I think my next step, when I have a little time in the next day or two, is to try to see if I can match it up with anything currently living. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE it if what you and RC are thinking about is true, so I'm sure hoping I don't have any luck! But I'm not sure what else to do at this point.

 

 @Nimravis @stats tagging you both in case you have any thoughts. Thanks!

[Nimravis]

I agree with @RCFossils it is very spidery looking and I am surprised that it is still present after being split open and weathered. Did you find it exposed in the creek or did you dig it out? I wonder how it looked when it first opened and if there is still more to be found inside the concretion. That other piece that you zoomed up on sure looks like a compound eye to me, very interesting and great finds.

[bigred97]

Thanks for responding, Nimravis! I found it just like this in the Creek itself, just lying on the bottom. I'm surprised I brought it home without having seen the black pieces, but perhaps I picked it up with that part facing down and just put it into my bag. We only get a few hours to collect and I keep myself working at a good pace the whole time.

 

I'm as surprised as you at how the fern could look so weathered while the black body parts are so defined. I wish I could feel one of the black parts to see if it's hard or brittle, but of course I wouldn't dream of doing so. Like Mark said, I'm treating it with tender loving care.

 

If we get any sun over the weekend I'll try to take a few more close-ups. Maybe I can get some from a more side view.

[deutscheben]

@bigred97, I am also of the opinion that all of those shiny parts are recent- the arthropod pieces appear to be a dried and partial water-penny beetle larva: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-penny_beetle

Picture from http://tolweb.org/Psepheninae/106315

 

The other bumpy part I'm not sure about, but it could be egg casings or another recent arthropod piece stuck to the rock. 

 

Sorry to be the bearer of disappointing news, but it's good to know your instincts and scientific consideration of the preservation of the mystery pieces were leading you to the correct conclusion. 

[Mark Kmiecik]

Soak the concretion. If the bits wash off they're not fossils. The water-penny beetle makes sense. I looked it up. It clings to the bottom sides of stream rocks and eats the algae. 

 

Nuts -- I got all excited about this find.

[bigred97]

deutscheben, thanks so much for looking this up for me! While it was exciting to think for awhile that it could have been something important, I was never able to fully embrace it. Part of that might be something that just seems too good to be true, but I think also the fact that I could look at the actual specimen, and not just at a picture like others were forced to do, made me a bit more skeptical. It just seemed like something sitting on top of the concretion. I spent some time yesterday looking at pictures of insects and other arthropods but couldn't seem to find a match. But this sure does look like a match to me. I can even see that hairy-like outline in the curved piece that matches your picture.

 

So don't feel bad - most of all I just wanted to know what it was!

 

Thanks to everyone else who also took the time to give thoughts on this, I appreciate it and I learn a lot.

 

Mark - I will soak it and see what happens, just in case.

[stats]

3 hours ago, bigred97 said:

deutscheben, thanks so much for looking this up for me! While it was exciting to think for awhile that it could have been something important, I was never able to fully embrace it. Part of that might be something that just seems too good to be true, but I think also the fact that I could look at the actual specimen, and not just at a picture like others were forced to do, made me a bit more skeptical. It just seemed like something sitting on top of the concretion. I spent some time yesterday looking at pictures of insects and other arthropods but couldn't seem to find a match. But this sure does look like a match to me. I can even see that hairy-like outline in the curved piece that matches your picture.

 

So don't feel bad - most of all I just wanted to know what it was!

 

Thanks to everyone else who also took the time to give thoughts on this, I appreciate it and I learn a lot.

 

Mark - I will soak it and see what happens, just in case.

Sorry, been busy.  Andrew Young had one of these beetles on one of his concretions.  Pretty cool!  Funny how similar form can be repeated by evolution!

 

Cheers,

Rich

[bigred97]

Thanks, Rich! I'd say that leaves no doubt. I'm going to hold onto this as I still think it's pretty neat, and I can remember when for a few hours I thought I might have found something scientifically important haha. And I agree with you - it's really neat to see a repeated form in creatures that lived hundreds of millions of years apart! Chris

[bigred97]

I have more pictures to post that we found in the Creek. We have a few that have opened from the freeze/thaw process since the event, but most that I will post coming up we found already opened (freeze/thawing can be a painfully slow process!).

 

First up is one that has opened from freeze/thaw. It was found by my wife, who is now officially winning the best fossil competition from the outing. I believe this is a shark egg case, Palaeoxyris prendelli. I am super excited for my wife who found this on her first ever fossil hunting trip!

 

I find the middle interesting. There is a brownish lumpy thing and some pyritization. Am I correct in saying that is the area where the baby shark exited the egg case?

 

Also, there is a brownish line that runs alongside the egg case, I'm wondering if that is somehow related. Thanks! Chris