A question about Fossil Collection

[joaoarguello3]

Hi everyone. I have a question, or rather I would like the opinion of all of you as fossil collectors and lovers of the life of the past, both amateurs and professionals. The truth has little that I entered the world of paleontology, and the truth does not cease to amaze; I have barely 5 or 6 months researching everything about life in the past, and throughout the months I always see the same debate between people that for sure, is nothing new for all of you. The problem of whether to collect fossils or not.

I recently read right here in the forum about a very controversial paleontologist who repudiates the collection of all kinds of fossils, and a few days ago, once again the debate was ignited by the sale of a complete skeleton of a triceratops to an apparently private collector . I personally do not have fossils yet, but later if I want to buy some so I do not reject the idea of collecting,  I find it a bit of conflict since in a certain part both positions have their apparent reason.

 

For example, thanks to some private collectors several discoveries have been made. Just to give an example, I would mention Tullimonstrum that I think was discovered in a private collection and later studied, so it is a point in favor of those who collect fossils.

 

But it is true that the private collection can also delay the process of studying the specimen since not all collectors are willing to lend their fossils, although in this part I believe that most of them would, but we must not forget that all people don't act the same. I can assume that the majority of collectors who do not lend their fossils (speaking of fossils of scientific importance, non-commercial and common) is because perhaps they occurred the fossils illegally, which is not a surprise, but I do not want to go into detail about illegal fossils.
 

The purpose of this post is not to discuss, point out, or criticize anyone. From my point of view, both ideas are valid and have their good and bad points. But I really would like the opinion of you who have a lot of experience and who obviously have their personal fossils. Thank you all and a big hug.

[Fossildude19]

I think the majority of fossils that people collect are already very well known.

I don't think that collection of most types of invertebrates should be an issue.

I also think that admittedly, not all members, but most people here, (if they found something previously unknown or more complete than anything ever found before), would be willing to donate the specimen to a museum/science.

 

I think as long as you are acting in the best interest of science, and YOU do the right thing, then your conscience can be clear about collecting.

[Kikokuryu]

For buyers of fossils, unless you are made of cash, you probably won't be getting any extraordinarily rare specimens. At least, none that a museum can't easily obtain as well. If you are collecting fossils on the field, that's another story, but not all fossils are equal in value. Commercially, finding a new undescribed species is a lot worse than finding a janky Tyrannosaurus. And as @Fossildude19 has said, most people here likely have no qualms of donating the specimen.

 

These high profile sales are typically of genera made famous via pop culture, and in the extreme cases, outliers of named individual specimens like Stan or Big John. It was surprising that Big John went as high as it did, but media coverage and ironically the backlash from paleontologists hyping it up helped a lot. This isn't great for most hobbyists either as it raises the price on common fossils of those genera as well.

 

The only time you ever hear outcry about this is whenever a Tyrannosaurus, Allosaurus, or in this case, a Triceratops is sold. When it is about an obscure genera your average Joe doesn't care about, it usually has nothing to do with the legal trade at all, but typically the black market. Of course mass media will lump all of it together in a big bundle.

 

And sure, if your life research more or less relies on that one particular famous species, okay, you're probably not exactly going to have the best time of your life.

 

Negative news also gets better views and subscribers than positive ones. You rarely if ever get coverage on ground breaking private specimens being donated by collectors, at best, you'll get some news coverage of someone accidentally finding something on their property.

 

I think something that usually gets ignored in these debates about legal trade is that fossil protection laws don't actually protect fossils. They typically only prevent the sale and collection of fossils, but lack any protection when destroying them if they get in the way of mining, or to build over important sites into housing projects, pipelines, roads, or airports. In some sense, paleontologists might be getting duped by politicians by giving them a false victory.

 

There is also the "gateway drug" argument. Like collecting ancient coins one day, swords the next, and in no time, you're robbing mummies out of pyramids. I don't know how well this hold up in general though. The only notable one I can remember is the infamous Tarbosaurus incident that also involved other Mongolian specimens being smuggled out.

 

2 hours ago, joaoarguello3 said:

I can assume that the majority of collectors who do not lend their fossils (speaking of fossils of scientific importance, non-commercial and common) is because perhaps they occurred the fossils illegally, which is not a surprise, but I do not want to go into detail about the fossils illegal.

 

I don't know if that's a good assumption. While that is a possibility, we have seen that some paleontologists have no qualms with studying specimens with questionable provenance such like Minotaurasaurus or Ubirajara. I'm sure there are a number of specimens like this that are tucked away in museums after being purchased from the black market. If the specimen is from a low risk location such as the United States, I'm sure they can easily collude with professionals to forge a fake provenance if it was stolen from a restricted site like a national park or Native American land.

 

Another reason is potentially the damage that could happen to a specimen while in the custody of a museum or institution. As a collection of any hobby, keeping a specimen as pristine as possible is a given. You typically don't want to move valuable anything around too often to avoid risks of, say, having a corner in a trading card get damaged, or getting a tear in a page of an antique book. People are very protective of things they value. You don't want to come back to see that the natural tooth on your Tyrannosaur jaw got knocked off.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Kikokuryu

[FossilDAWG]

A few paleontologists who specialize on certain rare fossils such as some (not all) dinosaurs act as if all fossils are rare or of great scientific importance.  In reality though many fossils,.especially invertebrates (but also some vertebrates such as Green River fish from Wyoming) are so common no museum would want to waste storage space on them.  There is no harm in collecting such fossils; indeed if they are not collected they will erode into sand and be lost forever.

 

Another consideration is that there are not enough professional paleontologists to search everywhere and collect every rare specimen.  Here, responsible amateurs can be helpful.  Several Forum members have found new species, and made them available to researchers, resulting in publications in scientific journals.  It is important to keep good records of exactly where the fossil was found, and what other fossils occurred with it.  Also such fossils must be donated to a museum so they can be available to other researchers in the future.

 

Of course you would need to be able to recognize that a fossil is rare or perhaps even new in order to bring it to the attention of researchers, which means you need to learn to recognize the more common species.  Serious fossil collecting can draw you in to a lifetime of learning, reading scientific papers, maybe going to conferences , and so on.  Some amateurs, including some members of this Forum, are as knowledgeable as many professionals.  Paleontology is one of the few sciences where serious amateurs can make a real contribution.  This is something professionals who want to ban private collecting do not understand.

 

Don

 

 

 

[Wrangellian]

It's hard for me to understand why there are any professionals at all who want to ban fossil collecting altogether.

[FossilDAWG]

51 minutes ago, Wrangellian said:

It's hard for me to understand why there are any professionals at all who want to ban fossil collecting altogether.

Professional scientists are people, and they bring the whole range of personalities with them.  I have known paleontologists who are incredibly generous with their knowledge and time.  Often they are rewarded to at least some extent, as they cultivate a community of serious collectors who bring them any unusual finds and are happy to donate important specimens.  Others are territorial and unsharing, the "get off my lawn" type.  The few paleontologists I have met who are hostile to private collecting all belong to this personality type.  I suspect they are also somewhat insecure and perhaps they feel threatened by non-professionals who know as much (or more) than they do, but that's just a guess. I think it's all a reflection of personality, not actual scientific principle. 

 

Don

[DPS Ammonite]

2 hours ago, Kikokuryu said:

fossil protection laws don't actually protect fossils. They typically only prevent the sale and collection of fossils, but lack any protection when destroying them if they get in the way of mining, or to build over important sites into housing projects, pipelines, roads, or airports. 

 

California has strong fossil retrieval and study regulations when construction projects might find fossils. Paleontologist are hired to monitor construction sites for fossils. Many projects such as the LA mass transit tunnels, new Caldecott Tunnel near Oakland, and many lake and dam projects have found wonderful fossils. UC Berkeley stores many of them. They found over 20 Miocene whale skulls alone during the Calaveras Dam project near San Jose.

 

https://www.myfossil.org/research-calaveras-dam-construction-salvage-paleontology/

 

Does anyone know if other states have similar programs?

Edited October 24, 2021 by DPS Ammonite

[Tidgy's Dad]

Do what you wish, as long as you don't break any laws. 

How many stamps or coins, or baseball cards are in the hands of private collectors and unknown to the 'experts' or museums?

How many ancient coins, Egyptian relics and Doctor Who episodes? 

Without the private collectors, these would in many cases have been destroyed, lost or never found. 

One day, they may find their way into the hands of ungrateful, or sometimes thankful, 'authorities'.

How often do we hear, "Found in a museum basement after 120 years?" 

Amateur collections, even selfish ones, are essential. 

 

[FranzBernhard]

6 hours ago, FossilDAWG said:

Of course you would need to be able to recognize that a fossil is rare or perhaps even new in order to bring it to the attention of researchers, which means you need to learn to recognize the more common species.  Serious fossil collecting can draw you in to a lifetime of learning, reading scientific papers, maybe going to conferences , and so on.  Some amateurs, including some members of this Forum, are as knowledgeable as many professionals.  Paleontology is one of the few sciences where serious amateurs can make a real contribution.  This is something professionals who want to ban private collecting do not understand.

 

1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Do what you wish, as long as you don't break any laws. 

 

1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Doctor Who episodes

 You already made my day!

 

1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

"Found in a museum basement after 120 years?" 

Had this happen for a Kainach Gosau fish some months ago here in the museum in Graz... ("lost specimen")

 

Franz Bernhard

[Daniel Fischer]

I have a small collection of fossils and almost all of them are collected in my area except for a few small ones I bought in the US. The fossils I found are almost exclusively small brachiopods that I don't think have any scientific importance however if I find out they do, I have no problem donatig them.

I think there is no problem with personal fossil hunting and I think fossil hunters contribute a lot to paleontology.

 

So to sum up, If you want to I think you defenetly should collect and buy fossils, you will only contribute to science and finding a fossil is one of the best feelings ever.

[FF7_Yuffie]

I know of a couple of collectors who have found fossils that are likely scientifically important but have had zero interest from experts and researchers theyve contacted. One is a member here who Ive chatted with a bit.  The other a fella I buy from sometimes.

[FranzBernhard]

1 hour ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

I know of a couple of collectors who have found fossils that are likely scientifically important but have had zero interest from experts and researchers theyve contacted.

This is indeed a big problem. Finding the correct person.

I have a friend, an amateur paleontolgist, how has specialized in the Palaeozoic of Graz. He has published many papers in local journals, with IDs based on old descriptions. And he knows, that all these species are in urgent need of revision. There is a professional paleontologist nearby, working mainly in the same formations, but he has another focus. He cooperates often with this prof, but the prof can in no way perform all the revisions of the various fossil groups (marine invertebrates). At the last, the amateur has to do it on his own. Or let it be.

Franz Bernhard

[cngodles]

I collect and catalog. I have 275 specimens cataloged and stored. 99% of them have been posted online for the public to see. I probably have cataloged 30% of what I have, but I would say 85% of the interesting specimens I have.

 

I would donate something in a heartbeat if it was significant. I even recently donated some favorite fossils that are likely on their way to be the holotype and paratypes of a yet-to-be-described species. They will go to the museum after study. If my collection gets unmanageable, I am considering donating specimens directly.

 

As much as I like the trophies, I can’t keep them forever. I get more out of sharing my finds online than just having them. I also have enjoyed studying them

and have been attempting to write online manuscripts about particular specimen groups. I am interested in providing truthful online knowledge, and the fossils are great for that.

 

That is not to say the trophy fossil hunters don’t exist.