Paleontological Preservation Act Hr 554

[Guest solius symbiosus]

They seem to view collectors as evil, a part of an unpleasant reality. The SVP would have the government take control of fossils on private land . . . if they could find a way to overcome private property rights (another aspect of unpleasant reality for them).

You're torching a straw man with that one.<wink>

This bill is nothing more than effort to prevent commercial dealers from trashing our federal lands in search of profits, and I think that they should be held accountable for stealing from us all. For that is essentially what they do.

As Bobby noted, it is currently illegal to collect verts on federal land, and all fossils and mineral specimens in National Parks Service lands:

Rockhounding/Recreational Collecting

Collecting, rockhounding, and gold panning of rocks, minerals, and paleontological specimens, for either recreational or educational purposes is generally prohibited in all units of the National Park System (36 C.F.R. § 2.1(a) and § 2.5(a)). Violators of this prohibition are subject to criminal penalties. Anyone with information about illegal activities or who would like to report suspicious activity in the national parks should call 1-888-NPS-CRIME (888-677-2746). You may speak directly to a ranger or remain anonymous when reporting these activities.

There are two exceptions to the general prohibition. Limited recreational gold panning is allowed in the Whiskeytown unit of the Whiskeytown-Shasta-Trinity National Recreation Area in California, in accordance with regulations at 36 C.F.R. § 7.91.

The second exception involves some Alaska park units, where surface collection by hand (including hand-held gold pans) and for personal recreational use only, of rocks and minerals (except for silver, platinum, gemstones, and fossils) is allowed in accordance with 36 C.F.R. § 13.20©. Shovels, pickaxes, sluice boxes, and dredges may not be used to collect these items. If collecting these resources is likely have a significant adverse impact on park resources or visitor enjoyment, the park superintendent will prohibit or restrict collection.

http://www.nature.nps.gov/geology/permits/index.cfm#rock

The relevant portions of the bill that was introduced in the last session:

HR 554 IH

A BILL

To provide for the protection of paleontological resources on Federal lands, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Paleontological Resources Preservation Act'.

SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS.

As used in this Act:

(1) CASUAL COLLECTING- The term `casual collecting' means the collecting of a reasonable amount of common invertebrate and plant paleontological resources for non-commercial personal use, either by surface collection or the use of non-powered hand tools resulting in only negligible disturbance to the Earth's surface and other resources. As used in this paragraph, the terms `reasonable amount', `common invertebrate and plant paleontological resources' and `negligible disturbance' shall be determined by the Secretary.

(...)

SEC. 4. PUBLIC AWARENESS AND EDUCATION PROGRAM.

The Secretary shall establish a program to increase public awareness about the significance of paleontological resources.

(...)

(2) CASUAL COLLECTING EXCEPTION- The Secretary may allow casual collecting without a permit on Federal lands controlled or administered by the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Reclamation, and the Forest Service, where such collection is consistent with the laws governing the management of those Federal lands and this Act.

We discussed this last year. Has anything changed?

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?sh...ic=3369&hl=

[old dead things]

Does anyone know who originally brought this bill to the table?

[Guest bmorefossil]

im afraid to tell you..... what will you do to the person who brought it up?

[Guest solius symbiosus]

Does anyone know who originally brought this bill to the table?

James McGovern, Massachusetts, 3rd Dist. It is a solid piece of legislation that should be supported by all amateurs... unless that amateur is in it for the money.

[Guest bmorefossil]

James McGovern, Massachusetts, 3rd Dist. It is a solid piece of legislation that should be supported by all amateurs... unless that amateur is in it for the money.

well i usually dont sell fossil unless i really need the money so i guess it doesnt hurt me any, I still think they should do something about the people that dig in the cliffs around here, but there is really nothing they can do.

[old dead things]

Yes I sell fossils that I collect off private land. I don't collect on Federal or state lands. I do understand the importance of rare finds. Other than fish from the Green River formation, the only other vertebrate I've found (mosasaur) was donated to a museum. I kind of resent the implication that because I'm just an amateur I shouldn't be allowed to sell.

The bill really isn't any different than the first time I saw it several years ago. There is one point that I feel I should make. Several years ago I found an ammonite that was approximately 40", it was on BLM land (I was hunting antelope at the time), I reported the find to a BLM office. Within three years it was a pile of gravel. Guess the BLM would rather it become a pile of gravel rather than collect it. Some of the coal mines in Wyoming lease federal land and destroy thousands of plant fossils every year. So what is the point of not letting the public collect on Federal land, when at the same time coal companies sell the coal for a profit, destroy fossils and they are not professional collectors.

Using an analogy, I'm not a professional mechanic, so using the same rationale, I shouldn't work on my own vehicle or charge someone a nominal fee for putting a transmission for them.

[Boesse]

I'm certain that Bobby is echoing the SVP line here. The SVP'ers have a vested interest in keeping all non-professional collectors away from their fossils. They seem to view collectors as evil, a part of an unpleasant reality. The SVP would have the government take control of fossils on private land . . . if they could find a way to overcome private property rights (another aspect of unpleasant reality for them).

Anyway, don't get me started on that topic.

Hey Harry,

I'll admit I haven't read it as closely as you have, but please don't paint me with the same brush as other folks in SVP - I strongly disagree with those opinions. I have no problem whatsoever with amateur collecting, as should be obvious with the discourse I engage in on here - I like to assist amateur collectors whenever possible with identifications/relevant information on the sorts of fossils I am more familiar with. Keep in mind, I started out as an amateur collector myself, prior to college.

My above post is more or less what I've been told about the bill, from one of the co-writers of it, who also has no problem with amateur collectors.

I only take issue with commercial collectors, who maintain little interest in recording relevant geographic/stratigraphic data, and collect fossils not because of a passion or love for all things ancient, but for a profit. At that, I only take issue if they're illegally obtaining fossils - otherwise, what's theirs is theirs under the law, in which case I don't care.

Anyway, I've got some reading to do for class.

Bobby

[Fossilcollector]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the things is that whatever you find on Federal land, You are not allowed to trade? With the new law, that would make it as bad as selling it and have equal fines, even on amateur collecting.

[worthy 55]

What next ?

[jbstedman]

The amount of misinformation being pushed about this legislation is really disappointing. There is very little that amateur collectors need to worry about.

The bill is aimed primarily at commercial fossil collectors who illegally collect on federal land. At this juncture, the penalties that can be applied to them are typically mere hand slaps -- no real deterrent.

The legislation permits the administering Secretary to allow "casual" fossil collecting for personal use of invertebrate and plant fossils. That is no different from the current Bureau of Land Management policy which is the only federal agency to allow casual collecting on its land. According to a Department of Interior report in 2000, of all involved federal agencies, only the BLM allows collection of fossils without a permit, and those fossils are limited to invertebrates (“reasonable amounts for personal use”), petrified wood (up to 25 pounds a day, not to exceed 250 pounds per year, for noncommercial use), and other fossil plants (“reasonable amounts for personal use”). Vertebrate fossil collecting on BLM lands requires a permit, as does any fossil collecting on lands under the control of the Bureau of Reclamation, Fish and Wildlife Service, Forest Service, and National Park Service. Generally, permits are issued only to individuals with a graduate degree in paleontology or related subject, or with equivalent experience. The permits must specify the repository in which the specimens will be placed. Commercial collecting on any federal land is prohibited -- now and under this legislation.

Opposition to the legislation is coming from commercial fossil interests who want to gain legal access to federal land for their private use and financial gain. I, for one, am not interested in supporting their cause.

The penalties in the legislation are stiff and, if applied to casual collectors who unknowingly violate the provisions of the law, would be inappropriately severe. That circumstance is, I suspect, unlikely to come about. Still, this possibility should be raised during the enacting process and, particularly, during the regulation writing process were the legislation to be enacted.

The best policy for amateur collectors to follow is not to collect on federal land unless they have clearly established that the administering department has a policy for “casual collecting” on that land and they understand what that policy entails. That is good policy now and good policy for the future.

The bill was passed by the Senate as part of an omnibus public land bill (S. 22). The scene of action shifts now to the House.

[Guest solius symbiosus]

Using an analogy, I'm not a professional mechanic, so using the same rationale, I shouldn't work on my own vehicle or charge someone a nominal fee for putting a transmission for them.

That analogy is a non sequitur. A better analogy would be: I can work on my own car, and I can fix the transmission in my neighbor's car for a nominal fee, but I can't take the parts from police car to make the repairs.

[jbstedman]

well i usually dont sell fossil unless i really need the money so i guess it doesnt hurt me any, I still think they should do something about the people that dig in the cliffs around here, but there is really nothing they can do.

Remember, this legislation only applies to federal land, not state, local, or private land.

[PaleoRon]

I think it should be illegal for corporations to "steal" minerals and timber from our federal lands, with full government support.

[Harry Pristis]

The amount of misinformation being pushed about this legislation is really disappointing. There is very little that amateur collectors need to worry about.

The bill is aimed primarily at commercial fossil collectors who illegally collect on federal land. At this juncture, the penalties that can be applied to them are typically mere hand slaps -- no real deterrent.

<snip>

Opposition to the legislation is coming from commercial fossil interests who want to gain legal access to federal land for their private use and financial gain. I, for one, am not interested in supporting their cause.

The penalties in the legislation are stiff and, if applied to casual collectors who unknowingly violate the provisions of the law, would be inappropriately severe. That circumstance is, I suspect, unlikely to come about. Still, this possibility should be raised during the enacting process and, particularly, during the regulation writing process were the legislation to be enacted.

The best policy for amateur collectors to follow is not to collect on federal land unless they have clearly established that the administering department has a policy for “casual collecting” on that land and they understand what that policy entails. That is good policy now and good policy for the future.

The bill was passed by the Senate as part of an omnibus public land bill (S. 22). The scene of action shifts now to the House.

This is the attitude that SVP promotes: "Commercial collectors are evil despoilers of our federal land; only professional paleontologists are the rightful custodians of fossils. Commercial collectors want all the fossils 'for their private use and financial gain'; professional paleontologists only want what's good and pure."

Which is utter nonsense. To believe this simple, black-and-white mantra, you have to believe that government knows best, more government restriction on small businesses is a good thing, and that professional paleontologists work for no pay and are motivated only by patriotism and love.

Professional paleontologists are like any other special interest group. The SVP, in particular, uses public relations techniques and political pressure to convince the public and the politicians that their nonsense is the truth.

Personally, I'd like to see "fossil recovery claims" on federal land, just like there are mining claims. Why are fossils treated any differently than say a uranium deposit on federal land? Only the professional paleontologists and their minions have an answer: "Fossils are sacred, they are the history of life." (read: "They are the key to my getting a research job, my future career, my NSF grants!")

Most serious amateur collectors, sooner or later, figure out that they will have to buy fossils to complement their collections. I'd like to see more commercial collecting - more competition - so that fossils that I may need will be accessible and be reasonably priced.

Commercial collectors provide jobs to field workers and to preparators. Sales of fossils keep money circulating in our consumer economy. Why do you minions and the SVP want these fossil people out of work? Why do you want our economy to fail?!

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[jbstedman]

Commercial collectors provide jobs to field workers and to preparators. Sales of fossils keep money circulating in our consumer economy. Why do you minions and the SVP want these fossil people out of work? Why do you want our economy to fail?!

Okay, I'll assume you're not serious about that last comment. But I'll respond to it anyway. Commercial collecting on federal land is currently outlawed, so, how is this legislation putting people out of work? Hmmmm, unless there is this huge black market in fossils being spirited away from federal land illegally. If there is, think of the scientific knowledge being lost as sites are despoiled and fossils dropped into the black hole of private collections.

Seriously, though, the Congress has been wrestling with this specific legislation for almost a decade. The commercial interests have weighed in repeatedly but without success (except to delay passage), so now amateur collectors are the target of a scare campaign. At least Harry isn't disguising the focus of the opposition which is to let commercial collectors get legal access to federal land.

[Harry Pristis]

Okay, I'll assume you're not serious about that last comment. But I'll respond to it anyway. Commercial collecting on federal land is currently outlawed, so, how is this legislation putting people out of work? Hmmmm, unless there is this huge black market in fossils being spirited away from federal land illegally. If there is, think of the scientific knowledge being lost as sites are despoiled and fossils dropped into the black hole of private collections.

Seriously, though, the Congress has been wrestling with this specific legislation for almost a decade. The commercial interests have weighed in repeatedly but without success (except to delay passage), so now amateur collectors are the target of a scare campaign. At least Harry isn't disguising the focus of the opposition which is to let commercial collectors get legal access to federal land.

Actually, I was talking about potential NEW jobs when federal "fossil recovery claims" are instituted.

But, even in your hypothetical argument, you have fallen back upon the "fossils are sacred" canard so popular with the SVP. Neither fossils nor scientific knowledge is sacred. . . . Interesting to a few of us, but not sacred. How sacred is it to identify all subspecies of Cretalamna? How crucial is it to know if it is Carcharocles megalodon or Carcharodon megalodon? It's interesting in broad strokes, but it's not central to anything important in the long run. Except . . . . . .

It is crucial to a select few professional paleontologists. Their livelihood, their career progression, their success depends on such minutiae. (I don't mean to pick on shark workers -- this applies to all paleo fields.) They control knowledge, and they'd like laymen to believe that knowledge is sacred because, if knowledge is sacred, the professionals are the priests. Knowledge is power.

So professionals, particularly the SVP, propagate the notion of lost sacred knowledge destroyed by the unannointed in their "black hole of private collections." This irrational fear of losing unknown sacred knowledge gives professionals the leverage to get what they want from government -- starting with control of access to government lands and more, if they can get it.

[jbstedman]

But, even in your hypothetical argument, you have fallen back upon the "fossils are sacred" canard so popular with the SVP. Neither fossils nor scientific knowledge is sacred. . . .

Canard? Hmmm, not sure I want someone whose motive is profit to decide whether a fossil is "sacred" or just "common" enough that he/she can make it disappear for cash.

[Later thought: My earlier comment should make clear that I don't think "fossils are sacred" is a canard -- there are fossils that are "sacred" in the sense that they and such information as where they were found add to the sum of human knowledge. I think that is important to us all.]

[tracer]

lessee...should i jump into this? will big ole debates change anything? why do i like big ole debates? oh, well...

<diving in>

probably in about 2.5 billion years, the earth will be sucked into the sun, but there will be some catastrophic event long before then that gets all humanity. but none of that matters, because nobody on this forum will last probably more than another seventy years or so. but that won't matter either, because anson can flip the big switch anytime he wants and we all go <poof>.

in the meantime, we have met the enemy and we are they, or something like that. the laws get passed for various reasons, but when they get enforced, there's usually a reason. it is unfortunate if there's a big ole "gotcha" out there waiting to potentially grab up an innocuous little guy just doing something that hurts nobody, but clearly the reason the law exists is because of flagrant, unconscionable pillaging that pisses off everybody who isn't a thief at heart.

for me, there's primarily two issues, and they're not issues i've seen brought up. one is that i think a whole lot of people really like seeing complete, well prepared, and professionally displayed fossils on public display. and even though i'm a private collector, and badly want a complete dino skeleton, i shouldn't have one from public land, because they should be on display where everybody gets to enjoy them. and that can't and won't happen if some yahoo rapidly hammers out the expensive pieces and skeedaddles. additionally, it adds value to my life to enjoy information that others have preserved and made available for me to enjoy. my enjoyment of fossils would be much more superficial than it is (stop rolling your eyes, i see it) if it weren't for the work of others. i'm getting ready to order a book from a museum written by some scientists years ago that will help me figure out things i want to know about what i find.

we are inextricably linked - all the amateurs and pros and dealers and con-men, and therein lie the problems. in this, as in anything, 10% of the people do most of the good, a different 10% do most of the bad, and the other 80% are just along for the ride...

[mommabetts]

I guess I am along for the ride.

[PaleoPutz]

This is an interesting story that I remember hearing about. This guy found a new raptor like species while he was collecting illegally. He had a choice to keep them for himself or turn them in for study. He decided to confess because he knew it was a big find. It seems they threw the book at him anyway. Five months in prison, 36 months supervised release, and a whopping 15,000 dollar fine. Interesting article... it talks about the dinosaur at the top. The part about breaking the law is at the bottom. Good read if you are interested...

http://geology.utah.gov/utahgeo/dinofossil...arius/index.htm

[mommabetts]

This is an interesting story that I remember hearing about. This guy found a new raptor like species while he was collecting illegally. He had a choice to keep them for himself or turn them in for study. He decided to confess because he knew it was a big find. It seems they threw the book at him anyway. Five months in prison, 36 months supervised release, and a whopping 15,000 dollar fine. Interesting article... it talks about the dinosaur at the top. The part about breaking the law is at the bottom. Good read if you are interested...

http://geology.utah.gov/utahgeo/dinofossil...arius/index.htm

That was a geat read, thanks for posting.

[Archimedes]

IF we need a law it needs to

“Promote a way for amateurs and fossil collectors to work with Professionals” -- there are no professionals without amateurs or fossil collectors, all most all of the great finds are made by amateurs and fossil collectors.

This is a very narrow minded law as written.

This is not a good or well written Law and will help nothing and no one.

The bigger problem is if you give a bureaucrat an inch and they will take a hundred miles,

more or less misuse of this law for the so called professional interest, too many judgment calls in this law by bureaucrats that do not really know much, and are you going to rely on a so-called professional that is driven by greed and jealousy to decide.

Greed and Jealousy are human emotions we cannot escape.

When reading this law all seems to be all one sided, put into emotions, greed and jealousy control, and the excuse for their choice, its for the good of paleontology, where have I heard this before????

There seems to be alot left out of this law,

like RESPECT for the fossil collector or amateur.

Making sure the fossil collector gets credit for their finds.

Promoting INTEGRITY in the professional community, many Professionals are really great and they are great to work with BUT I have witnessed many that have outright lied, cheated, and stole for their personal gain, outright using people.

If they just wanted to exclude the commercial collector dealers the law would state that, but includes all collectors, EVERYONE, so do not say it will not affect fossil collectors.

Where is the money going to come from to even promote this narrow minded law, this law says there are to be appropriate funds, not paleontologist that retires that I know of is being replaced.

[bone digger]

I see nothing wrong with surface collecting vertebrate fossils on federal lands, or any land for that matter. If the land belongs to the people and the fossils belong to the people why are the people not allowed to collect them? If a fossil is on the surface it will be destroyed in a matter of months if it is not collected, so what are we "saving" them for, who are we "saving" them for? I can see not being allowed to go dig up whole skeletons on public land for private collecions or for sale, but isolated fossils, on the surface, why not. If it collected by somebody, anybody, amature or professional then it is saved for at least somebody to enjoy or study in the future.

[jbstedman]

If they just wanted to exclude the commercial collector dealers the law would state that, but includes all collectors, EVERYONE, so do not say it will not affect fossil collectors.

I assume you don't realize that you as an amateur fossil collector have very, very limited access NOW to federal land for collecting. There is no intention that you lose that limited access. The legislation specifically permits the administering Secretary to allow casual collecting of invertebrate and plant fossils for personal use the way the Bureau of Land Management currently allows (see next paragraph). Please read the legislation and read up on the various federal agencies' policies before you make a blanket statement like you made in your post.

Under current federal policies, only the Bureau of Land Management currently allows collection of fossils without a permit, and those fossils are limited to specified amounts of invertebrates, petrified wood, and other fossil plants collected for personal use. Vertebrate fossil collecting on BLM lands requires a permit, as does ANY fossil collecting on lands under the control of the Bureau of Reclamation, Fish and Wildlife Service, Forest Service, and National Park Service. Generally, permits are issued only to individuals with a graduate degree in paleontology or related subject, or with equivalent experience. The permits must specify the repository in which the specimens will be placed.

So, you are mistaken if you believe this proposed legislation will change your life as an amateur collector. It wont.

[Harry Pristis]

I assume you don't realize that you as an amateur fossil collector have very, very limited access NOW to federal land for collecting.

<snip>

So, you are mistaken if you believe this proposed legislation will change your life as an amateur collector. It wont.

Perhaps JB has put his finger on the problem. Perhaps instead of railing against this new legislation, we should be demanding a different approach from our legislators and land managers -- something along the lines recommended by the National Reseach Council in their 1987 study of "Paleontological Collecting" on federal lands.

That study came to different conclusions than those that underly the limitations in place and this new legislation. For example,

"Recommendation #3. All public lands should be open to fossil collecting for scientific purposes. Except in cases involving quarrying or commercial collecting, collecting fossils on public lands should not be subject to permit requirements or other regulations."