Paleontological Preservation Act Hr 554

[Guest solius symbiosus]

"Recommendation #3. All public lands should be open to fossil collecting for scientific purposes. Except in cases involving quarrying or commercial collecting, collecting fossils on public lands should not be subject to permit requirements or other regulations."

I think that is a recommendation we can all agree on.

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

Not all vertebrates are illegal to collect on public lands as JB said. Shark teeth are often excluded. So my problem with the law is that they include too many common vertebrates under their blanket protection (the way it is already). What needs to be done is for a group of paleontologists and amateurs to create a list of common, legal vertebrates that can be surface collected from public lands. Also, if an amateur does find a solitary piece of a vertebrate specimen (say a lone dino tooth), they could tell the Professionals where they collected it, send them some pictures of it, let them go out and see if more of the creature is there, and if the specimen is not then considered scientifically valuable, the amateur gets to keep it. Also, we do not want access to fossil collecting on all public lands... let's leave National Parks and Monuments and the like out of it. They need full protection.

[Archimedes]

True, this law probably will never affect me, I collect invertebrates, and do think Recommendation 3 is a good guide.

but the wording in the bill, S. 22, is not what would have professionals, amateurs, and fossil collector working together, my main point

If someone picks up a fossil on BLM land and gives it to a school child he is now a criminal.

Fossil are too common to make laws like this.

As bone digger pointed out, a fossil on will last a couple of years on the surface, maybe, then will be no good to the professional, these collectors are providing a good service for all paleontology.

There are not enough Professionals to do all this work, and there are fewer and fewer Professionals as the days pass.

Jbstedman, I think you need to go and read this law and understand all the ins and outs, and the bureaucratic mentality.

It does not seem to me to be a workable law, the law needs to have professionals, amateurs, and fossil collector working together.

This is Public Land, defiantly not exclusively for professional use only. Most all fossils, the vast vast majority of fossils found are not paleontologically important.

[jbstedman]

Jbstedman, I think you need to go and read this law and understand all the ins and outs, and the bureaucratic mentality.

It does not seem to me to be a workable law, the law needs to have professionals, amateurs, and fossil collector working together.

This is Public Land, defiantly not exclusively for professional use only. Most all fossils, the vast vast majority of fossils found are not paleontologically important.

Fair enough. In my post, I certainly suggested you hadn't done your reading. As for me, I have read the current proposal, those from previous Congresses over the past decade, the several Committee reports that have been issued, all of the available hearing volumes, and the Department of the Interior's 2000 report, among other things. I will assume you've done your reading as well. I also have first hand experience with the federal legislative process and federal bureaucracies. I will assume you have something similar, too.

So, with those assumptions in place, it is clear that you and I are not going to reach any agreement on this legislation. I doubt that this thread will shed any more light on the issues. But, at least, it has shown that there are two sides to these issues and the content about the legislation in the post that started this thread shouldn't be taken as gospel.

[iamsharky]

Even though the proposed legislation applies to Federal Lands, it could very well in the future apply to state and private lands. be careful what you support and look for the hidden agendas. these laws often have a domino effect and have a way of turning the public against collectors, imho.

[Guest solius symbiosus]

Even though the proposed legislation applies to Federal Lands, it could very well in the future apply to state and private lands. be careful what you support and look for the hidden agendas. these laws often have a domino effect and have a way of turning the public against collectors, imho.

That is a slippery slope argument.

[Brian Lock]

Title VI Section 5 seems ambiguous about some aspects. Anyone have better insight into this?

Link : http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.554:

The bill revives SB 320/HR 554.

Title VI-Department of the Interior Authorizations

Title VI of the Public Lands Management Act of 2009 contains the following bills that would, among others, help the Department of Interior improve its water conservation efforts and protection of fossil resources:

. . . .

The Paleontological Resources Preservation Act (S. 320 and H.R. 554) would help protect fossil resources that are found on federal lands. The legislation incorporates many of the recommendations on the subject issued by the Department of Interior in 2000.

Critical paragraphs include:

Read Section 12 number 3, and other sections. As I read it - it does not include highways, only BLM etc. lands, and does not affect research/education and is intended to protect vertebrate fossils not invertebrates or plants. Otherwise a permit is required for vertebrate fossil collecting.

Casual collecting is also permitted:

Read Section 12 number 3, and other sections. As I read it - it does not include highways, only BLM etc. lands, and does not affect research/education and is intended to protect vertebrate fossils not invertebrates or plants. Otherwise a permit is required for vertebrate fossil collecting.

Casual collecting is also permitted:

SEC. 5. COLLECTION OF PALEONTOLOGICAL RESOURCES.

(a) Permit Requirement-

(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this Act, a paleontological resource may not be collected from Federal lands without a permit issued under this Act by the Secretary.

(2) CASUAL COLLECTING EXCEPTION- The Secretary may allow casual collecting without a permit on Federal lands controlled or administered by the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Reclamation, and the Forest Service, where such collection is consistent with the laws governing the management of those Federal lands and this Act.

(3) PREVIOUS PERMIT EXCEPTION- Nothing in this section shall affect a valid permit issued prior to the date of enactment of this Act.

( Criteria for Issuance of a Permit- The Secretary may issue a permit for the collection of a paleontological resource pursuant to an application if the Secretary determines that--

(1) the applicant is qualified to carry out the permitted activity;

(2) the permitted activity is undertaken for the purpose of furthering paleontological knowledge or for public education;

(3) the permitted activity is consistent with any management plan applicable to the Federal lands concerned; and

(4) the proposed methods of collecting will not threaten significant natural or cultural resources.

Note the definition of casual:

CASUAL COLLECTING- The term `casual collecting' means the collecting of a reasonable amount of common invertebrate and plant paleontological resources for non-commercial personal use, either by surface collection or the use of non-powered hand tools resulting in only negligible disturbance to the Earth's surface and other resources. As used in this paragraph, the terms `reasonable amount', `common invertebrate and plant paleontological resources' and `negligible disturbance' shall be determined by the Secretary.

I have heard people concerned that the wording does not specifically restrict the rules to vertebrate fossils and that Interstate and US highway outcrops could be included.

Brian

[THobern]

Doesn't Florida already have something to that effect? A 5 dollar annual permit and a declaration of all finds. Those of scientific significance being confiscated.

[Fossil Magnet]

Hi all!!

Please excuse my ignorance, but living in the UK I know very little about the state of collecting in the US... Would someone please kindly explain if illegal collecting is a major problem in the US? I can only assume it must be, based on the potential penalties discussed earlier in this thread, but as I say, that is only an assumption...

I would genuinely like to know more, and would be very grateful if some one could fill me in...

Gethin

[Auspex]

Some few of the large commercial collectors have turned it into an extraction industry; this sort of toll on the more sensitive and finite deposits is considered unacceptable (and rightly so, in my opinion). I applaud that fossils are gaining status as a natural resource, but lament that regulation will no doubt restrict amateur collecting.

[Fossil Magnet]

Cheers Auspex!

I couldn't agree more! Fossils are indeed an important resource, but provided people collect sensitively, there's no reason why everyone can't enjoy them...

Furthermore, as you rightly say, it would be a big shame if amateur collectors were hampered by the unscrupulous actions of a few less principled professionals... How many important new discoveries each year are added to the collections of museums by responsible amateurs...? If they can't collect, we would all lose out...

Gethin

[Fossil Magnet]

One more thing, and again I would ask that you excuse my ignorance here, but when you guys talk about Federal Land, I presume that you mean protected National Parks (like Yellowstone)...? Is this correct...?

Gethin

[Auspex]

All land admistered by the U.S. Government: National parks, wildlife refuges, Bureau of Land Management (this one is a biggie; lots of grazing and mineral resource lands). I say "administered", because the lands belong to the citizens, and are theoretically managed for the common weal by the Federal Government.

[jbstedman]

Regardless of your position on the Paleontological Resources Preservation legislation (and everyone seems to have one whether they've read the legislation or not), you might want to know that it passed the House today (March 25, 2009), along with the rest of the Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009. The bill is H.R. 146 -- the Omnibus Public Land Management legislation was added to that bill by the Senate. It now goes to the President for his signature.

In the course of legislative consideration of the fossil provisions previously in the Senate, several changes were made. Among them are the following: Previously, the legislation stated that the administering Secretary "may allow" amateur collectors to collect invertebrate and plant material on federal land without a permit and for their personal use. That "casual collecting" is now mandated by the legislation -- the administering Secretary "shall allow" such collecting. Also, the provision concerning forfeiture of a person’s vehicles and equipment used in violating the legislation was eliminated. This had stirred up lots of opposition.

What did not change is the prohibition against commercial fossil collecting on federal land -- wasn't allowed before, wont be allowed now.

[Auspex]

...several changes were made. Among them are the following: Previously, the legislation stated that the administering Secretary "may allow" amateur collectors to collect invertebrate and plant material on federal land without a permit and for their personal use. That "casual collecting" is now mandated by the legislation -- the administering Secretary "shall allow" such collecting...

This sounds like a windfall to me!

[Guest solius symbiosus]

^^Yeah, it appears that it is. Woo hoo! Sorry that there was no consideration to all you guys that collect verts.

[Auspex]

^^Yeah, it appears that it is. Woo hoo! Sorry that there was no consideration to all you guys that collect verts.

That's because our fossils are more important

[tracer]

That's because our fossils are more important

good one. it took backbone to say that.

[Carl O'Cles]

Good to hear the law hasn't changed to much. Shame to hear that there are still going to be a snarge load of vert fossils becoming dust in the wind

[mommabetts]

At least it isn't as to bad, it could have been worse.

[jimmy1971]

good one. it took backbone to say that.

Fossil or recent backbone?

[Dicranurus]

This is reply from: trilobites2 yahoo group.

Yesterday Obama signed the Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009. This statute makes it illegal to collect/dig any kind of fossils (animals and plants) on any federal land in the United States without a permit. In general, permits will only be granted to professionals associated with universities and museums.

Under SEC. 6306. PROHIBITED ACTS (a) it lists:

(1) excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any paleontological resources located on Federal land unless such activity is conducted in accordance with this subtitle;

(2) exchange, transport, export, receive, or offer to exchange, transport, export, or receive any paleontological resource if the person knew or should have known such resource to have been excavated or removed from Federal land in violation of any provisions, rule, regulation, law, ordinance, or permit in effect under Federal law, including this subtitle; or

(3) sell or purchase or offer to sell or purchase any paleontological resource if the person knew or should have known such resource to have been excavated, removed, sold, purchased, exchanged, transported, or received from Federal land.

False Labeling Offenses- A person may not make or submit any false record, account, or label for, or any false identification of, any paleontological resource excavated or removed from Federal land.

(e) General Exception- Nothing in subsection (a) shall apply to any person with respect to any paleontological resource which was in the lawful possession of such person prior to the date of enactment of this Act.

Thus, this statute makes it illegal to exchange, transport, export, receive, or offer to exchange, transport, export, or receive any fossil collected on federal land after this act was passed (effective Mar.30, 2009).

The law also makes it illegal to change the labels on a fossil to disguise the location where it came from.

There is a general exception to this statue granted for any fossil in a person's possession at the time this statute went into effect. However, because of the way this statute is written, it would be legal for a person to sell a fossil collected on federal land that was in his possession when this statute was passed, but the person receiving it would apparently be breaking the law. It appears that the law was intentionally written that way to destroy the commercial fossil trade. So now all your fossils that were collected on federal land legally have now become worthless.

However, it does appear that trading fossils collected before this statute went into effect is still legal, if you can prove the fossil was collected legally.

This law effectively treats fossil collecting like drug dealing. The penalties for breaking the law are similar.

Penalties- A person who knowingly violates or counsels, procures, solicits, or employs another person to violate subsection A or B shall, upon conviction, be fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

Under section 6308. REWARDS AND FORFEITURE

Forfeiture- All paleontological resources with respect to which a violation under section 6306 or 6307 occurred and which are in the possession of any person, and all vehicles and equipment of any person that were used in connection with the violation, shall be subject to civil forfeiture, or upon conviction, to criminal forfeiture.

[sweeneyb]

This is reply from: trilobites2 yahoo group.

Yesterday Obama signed the Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009. This statute makes it illegal to collect/dig any kind of fossils (animals and plants) on any federal land in the United States without a permit. In general, permits will only be granted to professionals associated with universities and museums.

Under SEC. 6306. PROHIBITED ACTS (a) it lists:

(1) excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage, or otherwise alter or deface any paleontological resources located on Federal land unless such activity is conducted in accordance with this subtitle;

(2) exchange, transport, export, receive, or offer to exchange, transport, export, or receive any paleontological resource if the person knew or should have known such resource to have been excavated or removed from Federal land in violation of any provisions, rule, regulation, law, ordinance, or permit in effect under Federal law, including this subtitle; or

(3) sell or purchase or offer to sell or purchase any paleontological resource if the person knew or should have known such resource to have been excavated, removed, sold, purchased, exchanged, transported, or received from Federal land.

False Labeling Offenses- A person may not make or submit any false record, account, or label for, or any false identification of, any paleontological resource excavated or removed from Federal land.

(e) General Exception- Nothing in subsection (a) shall apply to any person with respect to any paleontological resource which was in the lawful possession of such person prior to the date of enactment of this Act.

Thus, this statute makes it illegal to exchange, transport, export, receive, or offer to exchange, transport, export, or receive any fossil collected on federal land after this act was passed (effective Mar.30, 2009).

The law also makes it illegal to change the labels on a fossil to disguise the location where it came from.

There is a general exception to this statue granted for any fossil in a person's possession at the time this statute went into effect. However, because of the way this statute is written, it would be legal for a person to sell a fossil collected on federal land that was in his possession when this statute was passed, but the person receiving it would apparently be breaking the law. It appears that the law was intentionally written that way to destroy the commercial fossil trade. So now all your fossils that were collected on federal land legally have now become worthless.

However, it does appear that trading fossils collected before this statute went into effect is still legal, if you can prove the fossil was collected legally.

This law effectively treats fossil collecting like drug dealing. The penalties for breaking the law are similar.

Penalties- A person who knowingly violates or counsels, procures, solicits, or employs another person to violate subsection A or B shall, upon conviction, be fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

Under section 6308. REWARDS AND FORFEITURE

Forfeiture- All paleontological resources with respect to which a violation under section 6306 or 6307 occurred and which are in the possession of any person, and all vehicles and equipment of any person that were used in connection with the violation, shall be subject to civil forfeiture, or upon conviction, to criminal forfeiture.

Thank you Obama! (Not Really)

[Auspex]

Removing vertebrate fossils (and just about anything else) from federal land has been illegal for a long time.

The latest wording is aimed squarely at commercial "extractors".

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

I just read the whole bill , Section 6301. There is an exception for casual collecting, so nothing has really changed there, and the restrictions for selling, transporting... deal only with violations of the new bill. Also, now even museums and anyone obtaining a permit does not own the fossils they find, they remain the property of the USA, just like in Canada.

So we can still do casual collecting of fossils on Federal Property. The term is not fully defined as to what casual collecting is, but it does state that it is for personal use, can be surface collecting or collecting using hand tools.

I for one do not feel threatened by this bill/law.