MikeD Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 As it was explained to me tonight by Terry and others, it is up to the Secretary to determine who is qualified for a permit The bill is vague on such qualifications. Amateur collectors are not expected to qualify. Yes, teeth are included in vertebrate material. The enforcers would be current law enforcement, game wardens, park rangers, etc., many of which are not qualified to make the decision. I agree that most things don't change pertaining to federal land, but certain parts of the bill are vague and could be open to a wide variety of interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh-Man Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Great comments and discussion - keep them coming. From my point of view a well written bill that considers input from both sides of the fence would be valuable. Ambiguous legal speak is a big part of the problem. As MikeD mentioned a game warden can tow your car off and toss you in the slammer if that's what they want to do if you're caught with a mystery tooth - could be scientifically important, but he won't know for sure. It's hard to assume that a standard that doesn't standardize anything will be a good thing. So - BOTTOM LINE - if you think this is a big deal then contact your elected officials. If not, then don't. What is geology? "Rocks for Jocks!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOROPUS Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 At least is not as restrictive and old as Spanish one.You can`t pic any fossil if you have to dig! And no vertebrate fossil collection is allowed!Only those that are on surface, and common inverts, that`s why I collect shells and snails! Trade with them is totally prohibited, with penalties that goes from big amount of euros, to jail! Even if they are piked from the earth surface! On the other hand, by this way, many big and important exposures with scientific value, were preserved, as Rubielos de Mora (Tertiary Lagerstatte on Lithographic rock, as the Green River one, but mostly with unique insects,plants, butterflies and some mammals),Murero (Cambrian Lagerstatte),or the newely discovered Cuenca sites (Cretaceous dinosaur enourmous diying place). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreodont Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi Folks, There is a bill making the rounds in Washington that we should all contemplate. It is referenced as the "Paleontological Resources Preservation Act" HR 554. To find the bill, go to Thomas and type in HR 554 under the Bill Number. For some reason, I am not able to link to that document directly. I think that it is at least poorly drafted. I have attached a scan of the document. I suggest that if you find the bill objectionable, then contact your representative, and the sponsors of the bill. Oreodont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bone digger Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I have said it before, but I think it bears repeating: unless very detailed notes on the stratigraphy, and lithology, of an outcrop(including the exact position, and orientation) are noted, the scientific value of a piece is greatly diminished. Do you number and catalog all your fossils, or just the ones you think may be important. I for one think it is a huge waste of time to catalog every single little common specimen I pick up. I do however keep records of anything unusual, rare, or that I can't identify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 ^I catalog most of my pieces. If they are not cataloged, then they are in a drawer, or box, with pertinent data, and recorded in my notes. If you don't catalog every thing, how do you know where it came from. One might remember for a while, but in 10, or 20 years... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 In an attempt to merge oreodont's topic with oh-man's, I apparently merged oh-man's w/ oreodont's. Oh-man, if you pm me the title of your topic, I will fix it. Sorry for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbstedman Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 For me, in the final analysis, I think that we amateur collectors need to be careful in reaching conclusions about the legislation and, particularly, about entering the fight in opposition. It would appear that, among the key forces leading the opposition to the legislation, are commercial fossil collectors (for example, the dissenting members of the House Committee on Natural Resources inserted into the committee report a copy of a letter in opposition from the Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences, which represents commercial fossil collectors). The Department of Interior's 2000 report shows that the commercial position regarding collecting on federal land was considered but rejected, not only by involved federal agencies, but also generally by the public, as reflected by the comments received in the report writing process. Not sure I want to carry water for commercial fossil collectors trying to get access to federal land. Besides fossils, I collect roadcuts, Stream beds, Winter beaches: Places of pilgrimage. Jasper Burns, Fossil Dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 OK, here is my semantic nit-pick: "Federal Land" is my land, and yours, and yours, and yours too. The government is charged with managing it for the common weal; it does not own it. Within the phrase "Federal Land", there is a sliding baseline at work that makes the government's job easier, but robs us, over time, of our land. It is "Federally Administrated" public land, and the government should answer to the people for how it is managed. (Not that fossil collectors will fare any better in this light, since we are a minority, but at least the land will remain in the public domain). I feel better now; thanks. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 OK, here is my semantic nit-pick: "Federal Land" is my land, and yours, and yours, and yours too. The government is charged with managing it for the common weal; it does not own it. Within the phrase "Federal Land", there is a sliding baseline at work that makes the government's job easier, but robs us, over time, of our land. It is "Federally Administrated" public land, and the government should answer to the people for how it is managed. (Not that fossil collectors will fare any better in this light, since we are a minority, but at least the land will remain in the public domain).I feel better now; thanks. Well said, Auspex, but oft forgotten.... The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 To all AFMS/CFMS Clubs and Rockhounds: It has been reported and confirmed that the Omnibus Land Bill of 2008 S. 3213 now includes within its pages the following bill introduced during the 110th Congressional Session: H.R. 554: Paleontological Resources Preservation Act Introduced by James McGovern [D-MA] http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-554 has been attached to the: Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2008: S. 3213 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3213 This bill will designate certain land as components of the National Wilderness Preservation System, to authorize certain programs and activities in the Department of the Interior and the Department of Agriculture, and for other purposes. Below are the sub-paragraph Titles of S. 3213 that relate to H.R. 554: Paleontological Resources Preservation Act. Attached to this email is the actual Subtitle E from the Omnibus Land Management Bill. Subtitle E--Paleontological Resources Preservation [PDF FILE ATTACHED ] Sec. 641. Definitions. Sec. 642. Management. Sec. 643. Public awareness and education program. Sec. 644. Collection of paleontological resources. Sec. 645. Curation of resources. Sec. 646. Prohibited acts; criminal penalties. Sec. 647. Civil penalties. Sec. 648. Rewards and forfeiture. Sec. 649. Confidentiality. Sec. 650. Regulations. Sec. 651. Savings provisions. Sec. 652. Authorization of appropriations. Now not only do we have to work to defeat HR 554, but now S. 3213 Subtitle E. If either bill passes we loose the right to collect, own, show, etc., Vertebrate fossils found on United States of America Public Land. Further more it will be up to you to show proof of acquisition for the fossil or fossil fragments. It might not get passed during the lame duck congress, but I can assure you it will get passed right after the first of the year by the democratic congress. If these bills are passed they will really be a determent to all of our collecting not only in California, but all across the United States of America. Time is running out for any kind of meaningful commit to our legislators. We all need to read the bills and be informed. We all need to write, call, email or fax the people in Washington and ask them to vote NO on the above bills. The more negative responses they have received the more likely they may to be swayed to stop their passage. The CFMS and AFMS can not issue a position statement on political issues because of their tax status, therefore all position statements on political issues must be made as individuals and not related to or reference to any of the Federations. The bills listed below are still on the track to becoming law, but have not been added to the Omnibus Land Bill of 2008 as of this mailing. S. 493: California Wild Heritage Act of 2007 Introduced by B. Boxer [D- CA] http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-493 S. 3069: Eastern Sierra and Northern San Gabriel Wild Heritage Act Introduced by B. Boxer [D- CA] http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3069 H.R. 6156: Eastern Sierra and Northern San Gabriel Wild Heritage Act Introduced by Howard McKeon [R-CA] http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-6156 Contact your legislators and make your voice be heard. Keep our public lands open to the public. Please send this information to other clubs and individuals who need to know the story. Please include all or part in your newsletters. Please get the word out. Thank you again for your time. John Martin AFMS Conservation & Legislation Committee CFMS PLAC South 2005-2008 Palmdale Gem and Mineral Club smartin@antelecom.net pgmc@antelecom.net The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Thanks for posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbstedman Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 You might want to check out the earlier thread that considered this legislation (link here). Besides fossils, I collect roadcuts, Stream beds, Winter beaches: Places of pilgrimage. Jasper Burns, Fossil Dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screweduptexan Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I thought I had saw that posted elsewhere...but still good info. I can't come up with anything clever enough for my signature...yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Merged for continuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 "merged for continuity" words to live by... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Boy Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 I have a couple questions... A sharks tooth lying on the beach would not be scientifically significant, right? Who knows how it got there, where exactly it came from, etc.? Does water = land? In Maryland, for example, you can wade/walk a shoreline and not be trespassing as long as you're below the high water mark, yet in Virginia, the low water mark is the definition (I think). What about Federal shorelines? I know that military and/or Navy facilities have restricted areas, but what about those Federal properties where there aren't any restrictions? Kevin Wilson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossilcollector Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hi everyone, I'm quoting this off of paleolist, apparently it seems to be about a anti-fossil collecting bill that may be passing soon. Does anyone have any more info? -YvW "Hello XXXXX At tonight's Northern Virginia Mineral meeting, Jan 26, Congressman (and longtime Rockhound) John Culberson (Houston, Texas) stopped by at the onset of our meeting to inform us that there was a ominous piece of legislation, S 22, moving on a very fast track in Congress. It has already passed the Senate and it is loaded with all sorts of goodies for politicians and their constituents. Lurking within this bill is a Paleontology section that would make it illegal for anyone to pick up a fossil found on any Federal land!! The penalties are onerous, 5 yrs and $10,000 fine. Only pre approved professional paleontologists (universities and museum) would ever be given permits. According to Culberson, almost no one in Congress is aware of this?fossil collecting restriction in this bill and they definitely do not realize the ramifications. Also, the bill states that if you owned private property on which fossils were being found, these same approved paleontologists could come on to your property and lay claim the fossils found on your private land. This portion of S 22 could single-handedly destroy the fossil collecting hobby and harshly step on private property rights as well.? It is also well known fact that most of the important fossil finds in this country were made by amateur paleontologists. Culberson stressed that this bill could be coming to a vote any day now!? Perhaps within 48-72 hrs !! The key is to urge Congressmen to request that the Paleontology section be stripped out of S 22. John Culberson strongly urged our membership to spread the word to Mineral clubs around the country ASAP so as to generate protest emails to Congessmen all over the country as well as urging us to contact our own Congressman tomorrow if possible. He stressed that contacting mineral clubs across the country was the most important task and urging them to spread the word so that Congessmen all across the country get emails and phone calls regarding this and not just the handful of congressman in our area. Thanks very much for any actions you take in this matter. Sincerely, XXXX" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmorefossil Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 well that really does suck, but in most places it would be hard for them to tell if you were fossiling or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossilcollector Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Here's the full bill if you're interested. What you want to look at is Title VI- Department of the Interior Authorizations, Subtitle D- Paleontological resource preservation, starting from sectoin 6301 if you want to scroll down to there. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...f:s22es.txt.pdf Reading through it, it basically makes into law some BLM laws from various states, with strict penalties, among some of the important details: - It does not affect casual collecting of common fossils such as inverts and plants, like on BLM lands. - There are stiff penalties for selling/trading/etc fossils and Also for buying/trading/etc fossils found on federal lands if you know or suspect the fossils were found on federal lands. Basically if you think a fossil may have come from BLM land and you buy it, you're guilty and will be fined/jailed. - You forfeit all vehicles and equiment used while fossil collecting illegally on federal lands. - You might recieve a bounty if you turn in someone collecting on federal lands. - Does not affect non-federal land. You can still collect, buy, sell, on private land material. - Does not affect fossils you already own. Anyone else want to read through the 6300 sections and see if they agreed with what I've pointed out? -YvW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmorefossil Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 well ill be going to the doctors but after I get back ill be sure to look throught it and see what I can find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 From what I've heard is that this bill generally doesn't affect law abiding, regular ('joe plumber' if you wish) fossil collectors. It doesn't really make anything new illegal, it just better defines penalties for activities that are already illegal. For example - its already illegal to collect fossils from federal land. I don't know how that necessarily changes anything. This bill is meant to go after commercial collectors who collect fossils illegally - so all you east coasters are probably AOK. The bill will mainly affect commercial collectors in the rocky mountains and great plains who try (and often succeed) in stealing things like dinosaur skeletons from public, tribal, and federal lands. This is the consensus within the paleontological community, anyway. I know there are some paleontologists who give my field a bad name, but they (fortunately) aren't the writers of this bill; Pat Leiggi (a former preparator here at Museum of the Rockies) is a cowriter, and has explained this aspect of the bill. I know some will remain fairly skeptical of this bill, but from what I've read and heard, it will generally not affect matters much for the sheer majority of people on this forum and the like. Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 That really bites, maybe someone will stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmorefossil Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 well not really because we have plenty of people who fossil illegally but its on private property like when people dig in the cliffs and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 From what I've heard is that this bill generally doesn't affect law abiding, regular ('joe plumber' if you wish) fossil collectors. It doesn't really make anything new illegal, it just better defines penalties for activities that are already illegal.For example - its already illegal to collect fossils from federal land. I don't know how that necessarily changes anything. This bill is meant to go after commercial collectors who collect fossils illegally - so all you east coasters are probably AOK. The bill will mainly affect commercial collectors in the rocky mountains and great plains who try (and often succeed) in stealing things like dinosaur skeletons from public, tribal, and federal lands. This is the consensus within the paleontological community, anyway. I know there are some paleontologists who give my field a bad name, but they (fortunately) aren't the writers of this bill; Pat Leiggi (a former preparator here at Museum of the Rockies) is a cowriter, and has explained this aspect of the bill. I know some will remain fairly skeptical of this bill, but from what I've read and heard, it will generally not affect matters much for the sheer majority of people on this forum and the like. Bobby I'm certain that Bobby is echoing the SVP line here. The SVP'ers have a vested interest in keeping all non-professional collectors away from their fossils. They seem to view collectors as evil, a part of an unpleasant reality. The SVP would have the government take control of fossils on private land . . . if they could find a way to overcome private property rights (another aspect of unpleasant reality for them). Anyway, don't get me started on that topic. Here's a post I picked off another forum. I don't think George would object. AAPS has been fighting this and previous legislation for over a decade. I'm going to outline our objections, but must say I'm not aware of any section relating to private lands in either bill. If you can point me to that section, I would appreciate it. Tracie Bennitt's letter is available in its entirety on the AAPS web site for anyone to download and send to their representative. http://www.aaps.net/message_from_the_president.html The AAPS (Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences) board of directors has reviewed House Bill HR 554, “Paleontological Resources Preservation Act” and S.22 “Paleontological Resources Preservation.” There are many good things about this bill in both forms, but also many issues that need to be addressed that affect not only commercial collectors, like Triebold Paleontology, but many academic and scientific institutions as well. We appreciate you taking the time to review this information and how it will affect all of us in the paleontology industry, commercial, academic and amateur. The following points are reasons why AAPS cannot support this Bill (using S.22 data) and urge you to vote NO on the upcoming Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009 with Subtitle D included: Sec. 6302 (a) states that “the Secretary shall manage and protect Paleontological resources on Federal lands using scientific principles and expertise.” This is exactly what many professional companies, like TPI, have to offer. We applaud the Bill’s recognition that the Secretary of the Interior has the responsibility to manage and protect paleontological resources on public lands. After so many years of changing policy, this Bill would finally clarify regulation of fossil collecting, and increase public awareness. We are in complete support of the casual collecting exemption. Amateurs are the foot soldiers of paleontology and their activities are to be encouraged. We applaud the recognition that all qualified individuals will be eligible to obtain a permit. In past bills, commercial and amateur collectors were not allowed to obtain permits. Sec. 6304 © 3 states that “specific locality data will not be released by the permittee or repository without the written permission of the Secretary.” It is against scientific principles to keep scientific data secret. This should be available to all scientists and the general public who own public lands. Except in only the most special circumstance locality data should not be withheld. Science and the public want to know this information. Sec. 6306 ( states that “a person may not make or submit any false record, account, or label for, or any false identification of, any paleontological resource excavated or removed from Federal land.” Ironically, Paleontology is a field that is not set in stone. What you find and label in the field may not be what you find as preparation is undertaken in the lab. Penalties for misidentification of fossils will place every museum in jeopardy. There is not one museum that is free from labeling errors on specimens on exhibit or in collections. Sec 6303 © states that penalties “such person shall be fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both” is quite extreme punishment for mislabeling a fossil. We could find a large number of our scientists and museum curators behind bars if this was actually enforced. And heavens! With (d) if you mislabel more than two times, your penalty could be doubled! I guess this would be one way for starving scientists to get a free meal… Sec. 6307 (a) 2 (A) states “the scientific or fair market value, whichever is greater, of Paleontological resource involved.” There is no logical scientific or empirical way to assign a dollar amount to scientific value. Only the term fair market value should be used. The market adequately determines the value of a Paleontological specimen. Sec. 6308 ( states that “all vehicles and equipment of any person that were used in connection with the violation, shall be subject to civil forfeiture, or upon conviction, to criminal forfeiture.” Imprisonment and vehicle forfeiture should be reserved for only the most heinous violations. Our government does not need to put scientists in jail and confiscate University vans. We can visualize now a group of students unknowingly crossing over an invisible line and ending up handcuffed and prosecuted. An honest mistake is just that and should be treated accordingly. There are no provisions for the sale of fossils from commercial quarries or surface collecting. These are an important and integral part of the world of paleontology, and a mechanism to provide for the sale of fossils from public lands, like other resources, should have been devised as part of this Bill. There are also no provisions for commercial exploration, collecting, processing and sale of fossils on public lands. Wouldn’t this be a better alternative than fossils disappearing from the world forever? All other natural resources are allowed this application. Why have vertebrate fossils been excluded? Gravel companies can grind up fossils for fill, but collectors are not allowed to collect and sell these same fossils. Something just doesn’t seem right about this. AAPS members have volunteered numerous times to assist with the wording of this Bill and to date have been largely ignored. As the only organization of professional fossil collectors in the US, we find it disturbing that the issues we might have helped deal with in the creation of this legislation, and those which unfortunately require that we withhold our support, could have been successfully addressed had we been consulted. We invite you to visit our facility here in Woodland Park to see firsthand how a commercial Paleontological company does business and pays its own way. Please extend this invitation to other members of the committee. I feel that they probably don’t really know what we do, how we do it, and the responsibility we have to science and our field of choice, paleontology. Professional collectors, intimately familiar with the latest techniques for safe retrieval and documentation can and should be a vital ally in the fight to preserve our fossil resources. Myriad opportunities exist for contract and collaborative exploration, excavation, preparation, molding, casting, mounting and conservation. Due to the expense involved with fossil collecting, many specimens have been lost to science due to the fact that the museums and universities collecting on public land do not have the time, money or staff to collect everything they see. These specimens end up as dust as they erode away. Representatives from different museums and organizations have told us of this exact thing happening to them, as year after year they return to a collecting area and watch fossils erode to nothing. George Winters, Administrative Director Association of Applied Paleontological Sciences http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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