-Andy- Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Hi all, I am noticing an increasing number of sellers (especially those based in Asia) who advertise on Facebook, Instagram, WeChat and other social media instead of eBay. Unfortunately, many of them do not use Paypal. As you know, not every payment platform has buyer protection. To protect yourself, please carry out these checks: 1) Find out why the seller doesn't use Paypal. Is it for a legitimate reason? E.g. a Lebanese seller can't use Paypal as it's restricted there. Mainland China sellers apparently, CAN use Paypal, so take extra care if they refuse to use it. 2) Check the seller's track records. Ask friends and trusted collectors if any of them have ever made successful dealings with the seller. 3) Beware of similar photos on multiple platforms. Scammers sometimes create fake profiles that look just like a legitimate dealer, and steal their pictures as well. Perform background checks. Don't just assume that a dealer has multiple accounts, FIND OUT. Message him on his separate accounts (e.g. Facebook and eBay) and see if he notices. 4) Beware of non-Paypal platforms such as AliPay, WeChat and Western Union etc. There is little-to-no buyer protection on them. Don't send your money over unless you are absolutely sure of this deal. 5) Ask questions! Does the dealer know what shipping to use? Can the dealer take multiple photos of the fossil for you at specific angles you request? Is the dealer evasive with his answers? Is the deal too good to be true? There is no such thing as too much checking. 6) Be objective. It doesn't matter how friendly a dealer is. He could be the friendliest man on the planet, asking you about your family and work, laughing at your jokes, liking all your pictures. Most of the time, all they want is your money. Dealers who genuinely want to be your friend are rare gems, and worth holding on to. 7) Facebook mutual friends / Instagram followers doesn't matter. Scammers can make attractive accounts and add a thousand friends just to look trustworthy. I've seen a scammer FB account that shared over 100 mutual friends with me. 8) Does your credit card protect you? Assuming the dealer is sketchy, but you are somewhat sure of this deal, find out if your credit card/bank can protect you if this is a scam. Take note that AliPay doesn't work with many major credit cards. 9) If all else fails, demand Paypal. If the dealer genuinely wants business, and he operates in a country with Paypal, then it's in his best interest to use Paypal. Remember - great fossils appear every other day. Is this deal so special as to be worth the risk you're taking? Lastly, don't forget to post some pictures here at TFF; there are many experts here more than willing to share their expertise. Good luck! 29 Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Strong practical advice, an excellent admonition to benefit those prudent enough to heed. Thanks. 1 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 As in all deals , trust has a huge role to play there . I have in past used Western Union for Sellers that I met through FB , and the deals went through without a single hiccup . In the end , you have to make your own choices : my golden rule If the deal is too good to be true , then it's most likely dangerous ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 8 hours ago, -Andy- said: Hi all, I am noticing an increasing number of sellers (especially those based in Asia) who advertise on Facebook, Instagram, WeChat and other social media instead of eBay. Unfortunately, many of them do not use Paypal. As you know, not every payment platform has buyer protection. To protect yourself, please carry out these checks: 1) Find out why the seller doesn't use Paypal. Is it for a legitimate reason? E.g. a Lebanese seller can't use Paypal as it's restricted there. Mainland China sellers apparently, CAN use Paypal, so take extra care if they refuse to use it. 2) Check the seller's track records. Ask friends and trusted collectors if any of them have ever made successful dealings with the seller. 3) Beware of similar photos on multiple platforms. Scammers sometimes create fake profiles that look just like a legitimate dealer, and steal their pictures as well. Perform background checks. Don't just assume that a dealer has multiple accounts, FIND OUT. Message him on his separate accounts (e.g. Facebook and eBay) and see if he notices. 4) Beware of non-Paypal platforms such as AliPay, WeChat and Western Union etc. There is little-to-no buyer protection on them. Don't send your money over unless you are absolutely sure of this deal. 5) Ask questions! Does the dealer know what shipping to use? Can the dealer take multiple photos of the fossil for you at specific angles you request? Is the dealer evasive with his answers? Is the deal too good to be true? There is no such thing as too much checking. 6) Be objective. It doesn't matter how friendly a dealer is. He could be the friendliest man on the planet, asking you about your family and work, laughing at your jokes, liking all your pictures. Most of the time, all they want is your money. Dealers who genuinely want to be your friend are rare gems, and worth holding on to. 7) Facebook mutual friends / Instagram followers doesn't matter. Scammers can make attractive accounts and add a thousand friends just to look trustworthy. I've seen a scammer FB account that shared over 100 mutual friends with me. 8) Does your credit card protect you? Assuming the dealer is sketchy, but you are somewhat sure of this deal, find out if your credit card/bank can protect you if this is a scam. Take note that AliPay doesn't work with many major credit cards. 9) If all else fails, demand Paypal. If the dealer genuinely wants business, and he operates in a country with Paypal, then it's in his best interest to use Paypal. Remember - great fossils appear every other day. Is this deal so special as to be worth the risk you're taking? Lastly, don't forget to post some pictures here at TFF; there are many experts here more than willing to share their expertise. Good luck! I like buying stuff with Paypal but one thing to keep in mind is that Paypal charges the seller but not the buyer. Paypal charges extra if you want a check and then it takes weeks to get it and sometimes you don't get it. Yeah, Paypal is great for a buyer but can be a pain for a seller. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I haven't come across this problem myself yet. But this is definitely a good informative topic. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 12 hours ago, snolly50 said: Strong practical advice, an excellent admonition to benefit those prudent enough to heed. Thanks. I've been burnt recently, so yeah I am hoping to prevent others from falling for similar tricks. 5 hours ago, taj said: As in all deals , trust has a huge role to play there . I have in past used Western Union for Sellers that I met through FB , and the deals went through without a single hiccup . In the end , you have to make your own choices : my golden rule If the deal is too good to be true , then it's most likely dangerous ... I've used WU on deals made through Facebook too. I did receive my fossil in the end. It's Alipay and WeChat that I am more wary of at the moment. You would be impressed at the lengths some scammers would go to create legitimate-looking accounts. 4 hours ago, siteseer said: I like buying stuff with Paypal but one thing to keep in mind is that Paypal charges the seller but not the buyer. Paypal charges extra if you want a check and then it takes weeks to get it and sometimes you don't get it. Yeah, Paypal is great for a buyer but can be a pain for a seller. That's true! Some deals I know are made with the agreement that the buyer would absorb the Paypal fee. Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 A very useful and informative thread. I hope many will read this and take heed. 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SULLY Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I have been burned using Western Union in the past. Wether you like PayPal or not, it's a main staple in business transactions these days. If someone is not willing to accept PayPal for funds, I would HIGHLY advise you not to roll the dice. With Western Union, you have absolutely no recourse regardless of what there problem is. Just my .02 from experience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplomado Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 And beware of sellers who want you to use the "gift" function of paypal to "avoid the fees"! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 56 minutes ago, aplomado said: And beware of sellers who want you to use the "gift" function of paypal to "avoid the fees"! Done that also . But usually sellers are transparent there : either use the agreed upon price and use the gift option , or add the extra fee that Paypal is charging them to the bill .... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 18 hours ago, SULLY said: I have been burned using Western Union in the past. Wether you like PayPal or not, it's a main staple in business transactions these days. If someone is not willing to accept PayPal for funds, I would HIGHLY advise you not to roll the dice. With Western Union, you have absolutely no recourse regardless of what there problem is. Just my .02 from experience. A couple of months ago, an FF member bought something from me paying by Western Union. It was a smooth transaction. I got paid and he got the fossil. I think you really have to have some idea of the seller before you send out money in any way. Matt might have asked around about me or saw that I've been here a while and have known some of the other members before there was an FF. I don't know. I didn't know he was taking more of a risk paying me that way. Western Union used to be a pretty common way to send money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted March 9, 2018 Author Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 hours ago, siteseer said: A couple of months ago, an FF member bought something from me paying by Western Union. It was a smooth transaction. I got paid and he got the fossil. I think you really have to have some idea of the seller before you send out money in any way. Matt might have asked around about me or saw that I've been here a while and have known some of the other members before there was an FF. I don't know. I didn't know he was taking more of a risk paying me that way. Western Union used to be a pretty common way to send money. I get ya. As a general rule though, if a new seller insists on Western Union and I see no other way to get the fossil, I would do a background check and ask around. Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SULLY Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 It's all in who you know anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplomado Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 20 hours ago, taj said: Done that also . But usually sellers are transparent there : either use the agreed upon price and use the gift option , or add the extra fee that Paypal is charging them to the bill .... If you pay with the "gift" option, you have no recourse of the seller scams you... because the seller is trying to scam paypal by falsely claiming the payment is a gift. Never do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 General advice on the types of scams is good information. Alluding to specific sellers, or providing enough specifics to identify a seller, should be avoided to stay within TFF guidelines. Thanks. 1 The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 Understood John. Hopefully this next post doesn't infringe on any rules. 10) Join the various FB groups that call out scammers and search for the name of the seller. An example is the group: SCAMOLOGIST That aside, I am now gathering info on a potential group of Chinese fossil scammers who always demand Alipay, WeChat, Western Union or wire transfer. If this rings any bell with you, please do PM me or contact me on Facebook. We can help save others today. 4 Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SULLY Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 It never fails. You can't trust new people selling anymore. The temptation is always there because they always have something cool at a killer deal. But anymore, you have to trust your gut and more important, take a little time to do some research on the web to see if you can learn anything about them before you commit to anything. It's sad and frustrating, but it's the world we live! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunduril Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Well said sound advice to keep in mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted March 19, 2018 Author Share Posted March 19, 2018 I am still monitoring the group of Chinese fossil scammers. They are removing all negative comments off their walls, giving the appearance of a legitimate-looking service. I can't call some of them out on Facebook as I haven't done any business with them before, but if you ever fall prey to one, please do whatever you can to alert Facebook/Instagram of the scam. 2 Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted April 20, 2019 Author Share Posted April 20, 2019 Refreshing this thread. There's a new scammer on Instagram who masquerades as a Russian dealer. He shows off incredible fossils such as unprepped dromaeosaur, Asian tyrannosaurs, rare dinosaur species etc. Some of his pictures were stolen off other members, including @AJ Plai. When I asked him how I could pay, he told me to use WeChat or Alipay. If you want the name of the scammer, PM me. I will remind everyone once again to be careful of sellers who only want WeChat or Alipay, and whose deals are too good to be true. 1 Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 @Andy AJPlai and all other TFF members with stolen photos of their fossils should tell the dishonest seller that they own the copyright to the photos and the fossils are still owned by the members and are not for sale. 1 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 6 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said: @Andy AJPlai and all other TFF members with stolen photos of their fossils should tell the dishonest seller that they own the copyright to the photos and the fossils are still owned by the members and are not for sale. It's worth a shot, but chances are if this person already lacks the moral scruples in posting sale items that s/he does not own, a request for photo removal may just be ignored. There was a similar person on an auction site who posted a huge one-time tranche of stunning fossils several months ago (some of the items being image-scraped from museums!). Tens of thousands of dollars were made, but the fossils were never sent. Angry customers began posting reviews that the seller was unresponsive to their messages and that nothing was received. Fortunately for the customers, the auction site intervened, getting everyone's money back (and the added bonus was that the transactions were through PayPal, so easily reversible). Last I saw, said seller was removed from the site. 2 ...How to Philosophize with a Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelhead9 Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 Surely there are sellers that are honest but don't use paypal, but as a buyer you have no recourse with any other payment method. I once bought a valuable fossil online, paid with paypal, got completely ripped off, and had my money refunded by paypal in less than a month. Still Life Fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolmt Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 As an occasional seller and buyer and preparer of fossils I have used Paypal exclusively for the past few years. PayPal allows my clients the flexibility to pay using their credit card and in their own currency which would be very difficult for me to accommodate otherwise. Unless you are someone that I know personally by having collected with you in the field I would never use the gift option to sell or buy. PayPal definitely provides some level of comfort when many times the reality is that we are basically dealing with a stranger for the transaction. For me the extra transaction cost for using Paypal is worth the perceived peace of mind that I get from doing the monetary part of the transaction over Paypal. I say perceived because (knock on wood) I have never had a transaction go bad on a purchase or sale over PayPal. (FYI I use Paypal mostly outside of online), perhaps this is because there is more trust right of the bat when someone sends you their treasured fossil to be prepared. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 Paypal is great but not the only tool used for payment and we should be open to all other methods. What is more important is to know your seller, thats the key. If you want to risk buying from someone who is unknown to the fossil community then you bare the consequences if something should go south. Dealers reputation is just as important as the proper ID of a specimen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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