Tooth

[Carl]

1 hour ago, Al Dente said:

 

I've never seen anything like this, but my mind immediately went to shark tooth. The complex serrations are similar to serrations on some younger sharks.

I've seen my share of shark teeth, including many Paleozoic ones, including xenacanths, and this just doesn't match anything I've seen. 

[westcoast]

I could see that being some species of Edestus..

[Troodon]

Here is something similar with Edestus but I'm not convinced it's one. 

 

Itano 2019

[Dustink-]

I see the similarities but there’s differences to , 

[ThePhysicist]

Upon comparing with my Xenacanths, I agree with @Carl - not Xenacanth. The denticle shape isn't right. I however do think "shark" is in the right direction, but that's all I have to offer. Really neat find!

 

 

^ Tapanila & Pruitt (2019)

[Dustink-]

The physicist- thank you , I really appreciate all your input and help 

[Carl]

12 hours ago, Troodon said:

Here is something similar with Edestus but I'm not convinced it's one. 

 

Itano 2019

These are the first Edestus teeth I've seen that come close. Thanks for this!

[Dustink-]

But all of those have a curved side as my tooth is pretty straight down both sides 

[JohnJ]

3 hours ago, Carl said:

These are the first Edestus teeth I've seen that come close. Thanks for this!

 

 

17 hours ago, JohnJ said:

Edestus newtoni?

 

Link1

 

Link2

[jdp]

Why not Carchariopsis wortheni?

[Dustink-]

Jdp- the one you suggested, (from what I Can tell anyway, I could be wrong) but the serrations seem to be too uniform to match the one I have.

[Carl]

7 hours ago, jdp said:

Why not Carchariopsis wortheni?

Again, the serrations are quite different. And another subtle detail that leads me a bit away from sharks is the cross-section of the tooth. Most sharks have a distinct disparity between the curvatures of the lingual and labial crown faces. The tooth in question has near identical curvatures. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Carl

[JohnJ]

7 hours ago, Carl said:

Again, the serrations are quite different. And another subtle detail that leads me a bit away from sharks is the cross-section of the tooth. Most sharks have a distinct disparity between the curvatures of the lingual and labial crown faces. The tooth in question has near identical curvatures. 

True; except in Edestus, a symmetrical cross-section is not unusual.

 

@wayne_colorado

Wayne Itano shows an example of Edestus minor in his article, A tale of two holotypes: Rediscovery of the type specimen of Edestus minor that compares well with Dustin's fragment.

 

 

 

 

 

@wayne_colorado

[Carl]

19 hours ago, JohnJ said:

True; except in Edestus, a symmetrical cross-section is not unusual.

 

@wayne_colorado

Wayne Itano shows an example of Edestus minor in his article, A tale of two holotypes: Rediscovery of the type specimen of Edestus minor that compares well with Dustin's fragment.

 

 

 

 

 

@wayne_colorado

Oh nice! Now we're getting somewhere! That's a reasonable match. And since Edestus tooth whorls are symphyseal, that would allow the curvatures of the opposite faces to be equal. I'm leaning a bit harder towards the shark camp now.

[Dustink-]

This is not a match … look at the serrations - they are uniform on your example , multiple ppl have said it’s not edestus 

[Mahnmut]

I am no expert on shark teeth at all, but the serrations in the two pics above look very similar to me, and if you look at the right side of the reference pic not uniform at all, or rather non-uniform in quite the same way as your find.

Very nice colour by the way.

Best Regards,

J

[Dustink-]

The serrations on the given example start small at the tip of the tooth and uniformly get larger as it goes down the tooth , mine however jumps from small serrations to large back to small in random intervals- I’ve talked to many paleontologist and shark experts and they all agree this is not edestus 

[JohnJ]

26 minutes ago, Dustink- said:

This is not a match … look at the serrations - they are uniform on your example , multiple ppl have said it’s not edestus 

 

Notice that your specimen shows a difference in robustness of the serrations from one edge to the other.  Another Edestus characteristic.

 

6 minutes ago, Dustink- said:

I’ve talked to many paleontologist and shark experts and they all agree this is not edestus

 

Have you contacted Wayne Itano (a Paleozoic shark expert)?  I would be interested in his opinion.

@wayne_colorado

[Dustink-]

I’ve contacted the Dallas university paleontologist, and the sam noble museum paleontologist, along with a shark expert the Dallas ppl forwarded me to and they’ve all compared it to edestus and say it’s most likely not that and even went to say it’s nothing they’ve  seen or can find a match to  yet , I’m leaning towards some kind of lizard like reptile , but many many experts have compared it to edestus and all say no it’s not a match, not that I’m arguing I appreciate all help and opinions just stating what’s been said so far by multiple professionals 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Dustink-

[Mahnmut]

Ok, you got many many experts who tell you its not Edestus, and most Edestus teeth my non-expert online search turns up do look different. On the other hand, the published Edestus tooth JohnJ provided looks like the best match yet. Do you have any matching examples of lizard teeth?

Can anyone recommend an expert or informed enthusiast on mesozoic lizards?

I have no stakes in this discussion, if you show me a matching kangaroo tooth, I'll be delighted to have learned something new.

I just reject the statement that this is not a match, without saying that there might not be a better one.

Best Regards,

J

 

 

[Dustink-]

 Just because the image provided is close - doesn’t mean that’s what it is , there’s similarities yes , but there’s obvious differences between the two , which means it’s not the same , thank you for your opinion  , but like I said ,, I spoke with a shark expert - and multiple paleontologist, and they are saying it’s NOT edestus, 

 

there’s clear differences in the size and grouping of serrations when compared to edestus and I think if it was said species …. The multiple paleontologists I’ve been in touch with including the shark expert would of said so , infact the shark expert felt confident enough to straight up say it is not edestus or anything he knows of but is still looking into it,  now I understand  everything is a possibility until proven otherwise but it seems the majority of experts are leaning away from it being edestus , if it is that’s cool too , just trying to identify what I have found 

[JohnJ]

Ask them to compare it to Edestus minor.  As @Mahnmut mentioned, not all Edestus teeth look the same between species or tooth position.  

[Dustink-]

They are paleontologist… and a shark expert… I’m sure they looked at minor also before telling me it’s not edestus 

[Mahnmut]

My last contribution to this thread, I promise. (except maybe to grant defeat if you find a better match)

I just realized I did not use all features of Gimp I should have,

scaling your pic to 60% makes it an even better match ,and looking at your fingerprint, that scale seems about right. dont know what the scale bar represents

Of course you are right that similarity is not proof of identity, but with this much similarity I would ask even an expert to explain in detail which differences exactly make this not a match.

Best Regards,

J

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mahnmut
correction

[JohnJ]

1 minute ago, Dustink- said:

They are paleontologist… and a shark expert… I’m sure they looked at minor also before telling me it’s not edestus 

 

  I've worked with both, too.  They're just people that may not have looked that far.  If they did, great.  But any other line of reasoning should have examples that exhibit similar characteristics.  It's a fascinating tooth fragment that should be identifiable.

 

Maybe @Carl can run it by Dr. Maisey again.  I've also reached out to Wayne Itano via Researchgate.  In the absence of a similar looking possibility, it might be worth running it back by the your previous contacts.  Regardless, it's a handsome tooth.